Final Ending Discussion *HEAVY SPOILERS*

[M.Drekinn]

Finished the last ending yesterday (Final dialogue with Ayana) and I have a few points and assumptions.

Who is Otonashi Ayana? The writer clearly wanted to leave it open to discuss.

My assumtion is that she's just a projection of the writer of the story. The way she knows everything (She even said to Zakuro in the good ending that she has chosen the right path or said in the "bad ending" that she's going to be on the wrong path). Her grin on the end of down the rabbit-hole II and her talk assumes, that "everything is ok, it's just fiction".

*LIGHT UMINEKO CHIRU SPOILERS
She reminded me a bit of Featherine, where I came to the same conclusion about her identity
*SPOILERS END

What are you guys thinking?

[Alexei101mercurio]

Publicado originalmente por tanasinn:

Publicado originalmente por Alexei101mercurio:

"So re wa nan ... (exact number) tsuzuku."
That is the repeated phrase, it has been even sampled and arranged in one composition from the tribute to SubaHibi ("3x6 & HARD GU.W-C.I - I Loved Only You..." from "Tsui no Sora" EP).

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'm real pleased to see 3x6 mentioned here. The albums they worked on are what got me interested in Subahibi in the first place. Certain lines during my first playthrough had so much more impact as a result ('fuwan no kotoba..', '...no shi ...no shi ...no shi' 'SA, KAMISAMA!').

Whoa, so I am not the only one who liked this stuff. That's cool, bro. Did you read SH through? How are the impressions? BTW, i don't see any problem with bumping an old thread, because THIS thread has to be immortal=)

[tanasinn]

Publicado originalmente por Alexei101mercurio:

Publicado originalmente por tanasinn:

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'm real pleased to see 3x6 mentioned here. The albums they worked on are what got me interested in Subahibi in the first place. Certain lines during my first playthrough had so much more impact as a result ('fuwan no kotoba..', '...no shi ...no shi ...no shi' 'SA, KAMISAMA!').

Whoa, so I am not the only one who liked this stuff. That's cool, bro. Did you read SH through? How are the impressions? BTW, i don't see any problem with bumping an old thread, because THIS thread has to be immortal=)

Yeah, I finished it a little before posting here. I thought it was great but the more I think about it the more it approaches masterpiece-tier, ahaha. Got myself a copy of logico tractatus philosophicus for my re-read

[M.Drekinn]

Publicado originalmente por tanasinn:

Publicado originalmente por Alexei101mercurio:

Whoa, so I am not the only one who liked this stuff. That's cool, bro. Did you read SH through? How are the impressions? BTW, i don't see any problem with bumping an old thread, because THIS thread has to be immortal=)

Yeah, I finished it a little before posting here. I thought it was great but the more I think about it the more it approaches masterpiece-tier, ahaha. Got myself a copy of logico tractatus philosophicus for my re-read :B1:

Have fun, My mother tongue is german and even I had really trouble to understand Wittgensteins philosophy, but it was a nice read :-D

[M.Drekinn]

Publicado originalmente por Shion:

Subahibi's one of two VNs I've rated a 10 on vndb. It's a shame it isn't as popular as DDLC; I'd much rather discuss it rather than arguing over the morality of Monika's actions (pretty much the only interesting thing in that VN) for the millionth time.
It's rather fortunate that DDLC came out right after Subahibi did, though; that meant many new VN readers were exposed to a VN they would otherwise have ignored. The gore within DDLC may have prepared potential readers for some of the crazier ♥♥♥♥ within Subahibi....actually, who am I kidding, NOTHING can prepare you for that!

IMO, it's not the most f*cked up, but one of the top ones.

Usually I don't care if a character is r*ped, but this was the first time I got shocked and felt disgust over a fictional scene.

[Alexei101mercurio]

Publicado originalmente por Shion:

It's rather fortunate that DDLC came out right after Subahibi did

You mean the English version?.. I guess so, but that is not making much of a difference i think. The Saya, for example, was presenting some heavy sh*t - nothing like SH experience of course, but whatever...
I was reading through Subahibi again, by the way, and new questions (re)appeared. For example: why did Zakuro did a big *GASP when she was talking to Mamiya on the roof after she escaped with Kimika from those f*cking diliquent Megu-Satoko in the cafe? There was a long discussion of Sirano, Zakuro even had an inderect kiss from cola(or whatever)-glass with him... Then the screen goes black and Zakuro goes *AAHH..! and that's it for that scene. What the hell was that all about?

[STAR PLATINUM]

Otonashi Ayana is the author. While all charactors in this game plays their role and interact with other charactors, Otonashi Ayana interacts with player directly. Although Otonashi Ayana meets almost all main charactors, she do nothing out of player's sight. As wrote at the begining of chapter 1, "In it(the game world) there's no value", interact with another game charactor is of no value. What makes sense is communicate with the player via the game. That's what everything in the game happens as it does happen, and the sense is for the outside world. At the last of the ending end of sky 2, Otonashi Ayana said "to the begin". Then the game ends and return to the title. For player, "begin" is not where story starts, but the title screen with start button.

Another thing is that the time line of Otonashi Ayana is out of order. A game charactor must follow his own time line, see what he should see, do what he is decided to do, while player(one lies outside world) do not need to follow it via save/load. Otonashi Ayana knows the whole story at the begining. This is not god. Gods may modify the world, but they are still in the world. Otonashi Ayana is not in the world, knowing everything and doing nothing to the world. This is like the author, who can do nothing after the game was published.


Subahibi was once planed to be a remastered version of tsuinosora, see wiki(japanese):https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%B5%82%E3%83%8E%E7%A9%BA .
The main story and charactors are similar between two games, but Otonashi Ayana in two are the completely same charactor. She also carrys out SCA-JI's love of futanari.



Finally apologize for my bad English. I should have express more..

[M.Drekinn]

Publicado originalmente por STAR PLATINUM:

*insert whole comment above*

Finally apologize for my bad English. I should have express more..

As long as one can understand what you want to say, your english is good enough. Where are you from, if I'm dared to ask?

Really funny that there is a wikipedia article to such an old VN. I would love to read the "raw-material" to SubaHibi, but I'm yet at the beginning from my japanese studies, so I need to wait at least 4-5 years before even thinking about reading this one.

While I agree with your points, which is quite similiar to what we had discussed earlier, there is another theory regarding Ayana:

There is the theory that Otonashi Ayana isn't the Author but "merely" the creator of this world (The link is somewhere in this discussion). And she herself is stuck in a hospital-bed into her own fantasy (The date with zakuro gave it away). But she is conscious about the fact that she can't make a difference between reality and delusions, is why herself she gave all those comments.

[Alexei101mercurio]

Theories about Ayana are about as countless as grains of beach's sand. I love thinking about her and making up a new version of her origins practically every time. She said once that she "Knows only what you (addressing that to Yuki) know, no more that that". Another time she said "What do you mean, the meaning of my words?.. They are just your thoughts right now" or something like that. So, it can be interpreted literally - Ayana is the thoughts of each character in some chaotic order, or premonition, in some cases. "Congrats, Zakuro, that just means that you've made a correct choice". That could be just woman's intuition that Zakuro is on the way to Good end and she isn't obliged to commit suicide. There were many examples, just cannot remember them correctly.

[M.Drekinn]

Publicado originalmente por Alexei101mercurio:

Theories about Ayana are about as countless as grains of beach's sand. I love thinking about her and making up a new version of her origins practically every time.(...)

I think that makes her one of the most interesting characters in VN-History :-D

[Alexei101mercurio]

Agreed. Didn't read too much novels, but seriously, can't even imagine more heavy impact on consiousness than her speeches. And her outer appearance goes good with her lines.

[M.Drekinn]

Publicado originalmente por Alexei101mercurio:

Agreed. Didn't read too much novels, but seriously, can't even imagine more heavy impact on consiousness than her speeches. And her outer appearance goes good with her lines.

I am (or was) probably the textbook definition of a bookworm (And reading is the main reason I started learning new languages). I would count Ayana as one of the most bizzare characters I have ever encountered (In a positive way of course).

Ayanas character can ONLY happen in a VN: In a regular book her expressions could only be described in detail and you have to imagine it yourself. No book could ever made me that uneasy about the facial expressions of a character. Her uncanny smile still lingers in my mind after nearly 10 months after I start reading.
Furthermore, her Sentences are written in a way that you sometimes have to read her lines not only very carefully but have to stop for letting the words sink in (Sometimes, I rechecked the whole dialogue in the backlog). Even the slowest Anime couldn't do that accurately (And I didn't even mentioned the whole story itself is heavily unsuitable for an Anime).

But I generally love those kind of stories which made use of the medium they are presented to make the whole experience unique ^_^

[Alexei101mercurio]

That is one of many reasons why this stuff won't get anime adaptation, ever. Or, if it gets, it will be awful.

[tanasinn]

Publicado originalmente por Alexei101mercurio:

That is one of many reasons why this stuff won't get anime adaptation, ever. Or, if it gets, it will be awful.

Tsui no Sora DID get an anime adaptation. It was awful.

[Alexei101mercurio]

Publicado originalmente por tanasinn:

Tsui no Sora DID get an anime adaptation. It was awful.

Totally forgot about it btw=) I didn't watch it, but saw part of it. Looks ugly as hell. Didn't give it a chance)

[AsheALotl]

So, I did some digging after the game to see other people's opinions of who Ayana is, and in more than one place, I saw it mentioned that if you play RH1 again after the whole game, it actually answers some of the questions that are left hanging about the plot. In essence, if you reflect back to the true route ending of RH1, you'll note the very brief comment that Zakuro did jump, even in RH1. There is also, more than once in RH1, brief subliminal images of the hospital bed, and of spoilers of later plot points. Then there's the spirit house. So, I have crafted a new theory of the events that happened- note that this is just another interpretation and as Ayana points out, there are an infinite number of possibilities

Below is my theory of Ayana and Yuki after revisting RH1, which I recommend everybody do.
The hint is the date of the first message. The very first curse mail is never explained- it was sent after Zakuro jumped and before "Takuji" started using it. None of Tomosane's personalities have any idea where the first message came from, and this one singular inconsistency allows the possibility that something is amiss. Oftentimes, an out of place time or date can be a sign of a dream, where there is no other sign. Note that the true ending of RH1 involves a very dreamlike sequence before diving into RH2, and one that implies Yuki was caught up in something. The fact that for some reason Yuki has an outsider perspective in ES2, is also telling.

The short of the theory is this. And Ayana alludes to it. Firstly, that everything we see in the "Inner World" chapters, is actually inside Yuki's head. In RH1, it is implied that Zakuro did fall on Yuki, causing a near death experience, putting her in a hospital bed. Everything that happens after that moment is a dream of sorts. What does this have to do with Ayana?

Ayana appears before our "reliable" protagonist that is Mamiya Hasaki. She is a consistency in every part of the story but RH1, and the two "Happy" endings. And if you get the ES2 ending, it does give you the option to go back round to the beginning and find a happy end. The theory I've heard that seems to tie this up nicely is that despite ES2 being the "true end" it wants you to redo it to get a happy end. Ayana is an insurance policy inside of comatose Yuki's brain, to make sure she finds the happy endings and the wonderful everyday that she misses from her hospital bed.

You might ask though, "didn't Yuki die?" Well, did she? We can't really know because the tale of her death is from unreliable perspectives. For all we know, this could be like Mr. Nobody. If you haven't seen it, it proposes the notion that a mind locked in a moment- say right before they die, or right before some big decision, or in a dream state- it is possible to live out whole worlds within the subconscious. In this case, Ayana is just an internal consistency for the dreaming Yuki. I think the repeated references to lucid dreaming are all possible hints to this. Hypothesis #8: Minami Yuki, in a coma after either, falling to save Hasaki, or being crushed by Zakuro, (maybe it's our DID-suffereing Tomosane too. Also possible), goes through an endless dream, trying to find a wonderful every day after tragedy. Ayana is a mediator of internal consistency within this dream.