Final Ending Discussion *HEAVY SPOILERS*

[M.Drekinn]

Finished the last ending yesterday (Final dialogue with Ayana) and I have a few points and assumptions.

Who is Otonashi Ayana? The writer clearly wanted to leave it open to discuss.

My assumtion is that she's just a projection of the writer of the story. The way she knows everything (She even said to Zakuro in the good ending that she has chosen the right path or said in the "bad ending" that she's going to be on the wrong path). Her grin on the end of down the rabbit-hole II and her talk assumes, that "everything is ok, it's just fiction".

*LIGHT UMINEKO CHIRU SPOILERS
She reminded me a bit of Featherine, where I came to the same conclusion about her identity
*SPOILERS END

What are you guys thinking?

[Antera]

For me Final Ending was big" WTF happend ?"

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by Antera:

For me Final Ending was big" WTF happend ?"

I liked the way with throwing several hypotheses in the room and leaving you (the reader) alone for the credits. The Author made it clear to leave the interpretation to the reader, not many Stories do this well

[Noor Kade]

My interpretations about Ayana is that either she's the personifications of God or the author. Well either way that means she knows about the other characters and possibly lives on the higher layer of existence observing the lower layer. She gives advices to Takuji and Tomosane to not fearing or thinking too much about death, for nobody knows about death (Yuki's quote in Jabberwocky II). This is the applications of Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico Philosophicus:

"7. Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must remain silent"

Interestingly enough, Ayana gives 7 hypotheses, akin to how Wittgenstein's 7 propositions. Her 4th hypothesis, when Ayana said that Yuki is just a figment of her imagination, might reference to both Through the Looking Glass final chapter, as well as Azathoth of Lovecraft Mythology (Well there's a lot of Lovecraft references here as well, as expected from SubaHibi that referenced so much stuffs ranged from philosophy to otaku stuff and uncyclopedia. Applications to its reference are really great too, such as the Footprints in the Sand poem with the hill carry scene on Jabberwocky II, or Cyrano de Bergerac to basically large part of the plot point you already know of.

The very point of the VN for me is that, like many other people might've said before is to "Live Happily!" (another quote from Wittgenstein). To live happily means that you're the one who decides the events of your life to be whatever you think. If you gone through painful unwanted events in your life, in the end, it's you and no other than yourself who perceive it, whether it be optimistically or pessimistically. But why you should take something negatively if you can take it positively? The narrative and the narrative methods also strengthens its solipsistic take too. Live Happily is humanity's raison d'etre. I'd have to say that if I have to pick my favorite chapter, I'm at confusion with either It's My Own Invention or Jabberwocky II. Invention is really one hell of a ride, while Jabberwocky II (as well as Wonderful Everyday ending) is really really cathartic experiences. Which Dreamed It makes me cry like a baby, poor Hasaki.

I read in japanese btw, already pledged some to the kickstarter and I'm not sure if the translations are nice. I heard some unpleasant issues about it.

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by BERNKASTEL:

Since I can't read japanese It's impossible for me to determine the quality of the translation at all. But I got no issues in understanding the philosophical points, so I think the quality in the translation is ok at least (And I'm only strong in english reading. I lack a lot in my writing and hearing skills).

After carefully thinking which chapter I liked the most, I would have to choose between Down the rabbit hole I or Jabberwocky II.
I was shocked, surprised and amazed at the same time after reading Down the rabbit hole a second time. It seems like the Author summarised the whole plot in indirect ways through the whole dialogues and I fell in love with that chapter.
But It's really hard to pick my favorite, because nearly every chapter has it's own strong aspects: Down the rabbit whole has a strong, but not over-manly female protagonist which I want to see more in japanese medium. And I never knew I could get seriously disgusted about Zakuro beeing r*ped in looking glass insects (It was clear from the start, I knew). And that came from one who never bet an eye in euphoria ;-)
Which dreamed it made me went full despair. Hasaki have done nothing wrong, but it's she who suffered the most.

To one of the seven Hypothesises: I don't know which one, but the one with only one Soul reincarnated endlessly. For me, that was a beautiful glance to the reader itself.

I have preordered a physical one with the artbook. After a Week after finishing the story I have to say, that it's one of the best experiences I had in Visual Novel

[Noor Kade]

Oh that's the last hypothesis. That's an interesting take indeed.

Rabbit Hole 1 is unique for me. EndSky 2 ending made me reminded of its existence and it got stronger feels on reread.

Yes, Yuki is nice indeed.

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by BERNKASTEL:

Oh that's the last hypothesis. That's an interesting take indeed.

Rabbit Hole 1 is unique for me. EndSky 2 ending made me reminded of its existence and it got stronger feels on reread.

Yes, Yuki is nice indeed.

Just because of End Sky 2 I decided for reading Down the Rabbit hole I + II and it's my own invention again. And like the same in Higurashi and Umineko it was a whole new experience with the knowledge of the whole plot.

I really want to read more of Ryuukishi07's work, but only a few were translated. :-/

[xx]

really, don't give a ♥♥♥♥ about endsky2, its only usage is exampling how the writer see this story's world and create a loop to the first chapter
also endsky2 is a reference of sca's first vn endsky, which is nearly the same with wonderful everyday, maybe you can understand the story more by playing endsky

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by YJMokouPrice:

really, don't give a ♥♥♥♥ about endsky2, its only usage is exampling how the writer see this story's world and create a loop to the first chapter
also endsky2 is a reference of sca's first vn endsky, which is nearly the same with wonderful everyday, maybe you can understand the story more by playing endsky

As far as I know is, that Tsui no Sora will not give you much more explanation (I don't know it first-hand, but from people who have read it). It would be more likely to read Wittgensteins "Tractatus logico-philosophicus" to understand the deeper parts of the plot. Unfortunatly, that's really heavy stuff to digest (I tried to read a summary of it.. Tried.).
Some people don't care, but I love the Endsky II ending because it gives you more stuff to think about after reading through the story.

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by Shion:

I like your way of thinking. The existence of more hypotheses never crossed my mind because I was too much fixed on Wittgensteins 7 propositions (Which SCA-Ji obviously references in this scene). But you make a very good point.

Sadly, I have never read the Dark Tower series but I take it on my list from now on

Since I finished reading, I didn't choose a hypothesis, because it's impossible for me to accept that there can only be one. It reminded me about Higurashi and Uminekos time-loop where infinite possibillitys can exist at the same time-from (Observed from Outside, not inside)

[Alexei101mercurio]

It just hit me: Ayana-san is Collective Unconscious. That is, going by one of her last theories. Main common factor here is being able to understand each other by default. Ayana is within every man and woman on the Earth. And she is the only one who did have death experience because of the mortal nature of humans she inhibits. In this novel, she tries to communicate with people by the means of words and thus telling them something about themselves or about the others. This everlasting 'game' would bore her otherwise. She is like lady Bernkastel if you know what I mean.

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by Alexei101mercurio:

It just hit me: Ayana-san is Collective Unconscious. That is, going by one of her last theories. Main common factor here is being able to understand each other by default. Ayana is within every man and woman on the Earth. And she is the only one who did have death experience because of the mortal nature of humans she inhibits. In this novel, she tries to communicate with people by the means of words and thus telling them something about themselves or about the others. This everlasting 'game' would bore her otherwise. She is like lady Bernkastel if you know what I mean.

Great input! That would solve my concern why she asked Yuki what experience death for Yuki is and the sentence "I can only show you what you know". She is basicly able to force memories to the surface and the hypothesis with "Only one Soul reborn forever" takes a whole new perspective. Gotta loved Bernkastel in Umineko. Thanks for that great input!

[Alexei101mercurio]

By the way, help me remember if Ayana had ever asked Mamya Takuji about his fear of death? Thing is, in the Jabberwocky I, she told Tomosane that she's asked Mamya of 'the same thing' that she asked him (if one fears death or not)... But it seems that she only asked Mamya if he was afraid of HER. Correct me if I made a mistake.
I would like to talk to Ayana someday =) Would make a nice counselor.

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by Alexei101mercurio:

I would like to talk to Ayana someday =) Would make a nice counselor.

Yes, totally!

Originally posted by Alexei101mercurio:

By the way, help me remember if Ayana had ever asked Mamya Takuji about his fear of death? Thing is, in the Jabberwocky I, she told Tomosane that she's asked Mamya of 'the same thing' that she asked him (if one fears death or not)... But it seems that she only asked Mamya if he was afraid of HER. Correct me if I made a mistake.

I only remember as much as you do. But Mamya treated Ayana as a threat, so you could interpret that she asked "the same". Because Mamya believed about guiding all of his followers to heaven, so dying would mean nothing to him (Making the question obsolete). So Ayana asked him in a way he could understand. But that's just a guess

[Alexei101mercurio]

Well, if taken literally, AND if Ayana actually didn't ask Mamya if he afraids of Death, than... Ayana-san is Death-san herself!

[M.Drekinn]

Originally posted by Alexei101mercurio:

Well, if taken literally, AND if Ayana actually didn't ask Mamya if he afraids of Death, than... Ayana-san is Death-san herself!

To be honest, Ayana beeing a Shinigami was the first guess I made after Down the rabbit hole 1 & 2. Mostly because of the question if Yuki fears death, her evil grin at the end of Dtrh2 and her "consoling" comment "Mamya only fell from the roof."