Brigade Size

[schnittker_financial]

When recruiting, there needs to be a slider to adjust the brigade side. I'd say starting at 1,500, then increasing to 3,000 in increments of 500.

[bradhunter]

Brigade size is based on ~4 Regiments. If you look at average sizes over the course of the war, considering the system, the numbers work well after you consider KIAs, casualties, stragglers, deserters, frontages, etc. Any smaller and you have a regimental-sized game, and units in the 200-ish size. Then you have SoW, which was fun, but an absolute nightmare in large battles.

[HB]

Originally posted by bradhunter:

Brigade size is based on ~4 Regiments.

1 out, its based on 3 Regiments, so is designed to be 25% lower than the historical average strength of a Brigade mustered into service. This forces both sides to conform to unhistoric force levels for a Brigade, esp since each side had a different Regimental size,US Regiment 1,025 CS Regiment 1,389

Originally posted by bradhunter:

If you look at average sizes over the course of the war, considering the system, the numbers work well after you consider KIAs, casualties, stragglers, deserters, frontages, etc.

If you did look at that, ( and why would you as it is not relavent to the formation being mustered in at near full strength for Federal service) you find the game has little relation at all to historical Brigade sizes, and the total armed forces has little relation to historical force sizes, and casualties in game have little relation to historical losses, nor is attrition moddeld on known parameters.

[kgoodwinvoodoo]

I have my cavalry brigades at 1000. This allows me to spread my cav around so that I can be preforming all three - guard, raid, scout within the same area. I form Cavalry Corps so they can move on the strategic map. I name them Cavalry Commands. I also attach Cav Brigades directly to Army HQ.
Iam not sure how the AI deals with the lower number. I will have to observe that.

[schnittker_financial]

How are you able to get your cav brigades to 1000 instead of 2,500?

[DL]

Originally posted by schnittker_financial:

How are you able to get your cav brigades to 1000 instead of 2,500?

If you go to the unitprefs file, you can adjust unit sizes. Just be warned, changing the sizes and sprites allowances has some negative drawbacks, ie pathfinding issues and cover issues

[bradhunter]

Originally posted by hannibalbarca120002001:

Originally posted by bradhunter:

Brigade size is based on ~4 Regiments.

1 out, its based on 3 Regiments, so is designed to be 25% lower than the historical average strength of a Brigade mustered into service. This forces both sides to conform to unhistoric force levels for a Brigade, esp since each side had a different Regimental size,US Regiment 1,025 CS Regiment 1,389

Originally posted by bradhunter:

If you look at average sizes over the course of the war, considering the system, the numbers work well after you consider KIAs, casualties, stragglers, deserters, frontages, etc.

If you did look at that, ( and why would you as it is not relavent to the formation being mustered in at near full strength for Federal service) you find the game has little relation at all to historical Brigade sizes, and the total armed forces has little relation to historical force sizes, and casualties in game have little relation to historical losses, nor is attrition moddeld on known parameters.

I swear I asked this question at some point in time, and the response was ~4 Regiments, but I can't find the post now, and none of the Blogs have any info on this.

[HB]

Originally posted by bradhunter:

I swear I asked this question at some point in time, and the response was ~4 Regiments, but I can't find the post now, and none of the Blogs have any info on this.

The WBTS saw Regiments called into service with required a min strength mustered, ( 780 Officers and men) game goes with a Brigade strength of 3000, which meets that min for 3 US Regiments, but is below that for 4 Regiments.

[HB]

Originally posted by bradhunter:

I swear I asked this question at some point in time, and the response was ~4 Regiments, but I can't find the post now, and none of the Blogs have any info on this.

I suspect any reply your remembering was based on what is in the manual.

From the manual.

Unit type can be selected clicking the appropriate unit symbol. Different unit types require certain amount of recruits available:
3000 for infantry brigades
2500 for cavalry brigades
250 for artillery battalions

"The numbers are based on historical average sizes of Regiments in both of the armies during the Civil War.

The actual recruitment is done by the States, and usually as Regiments. A regiment consists of 1000 men, divided into 10 companies. During the war, the brigades consisted usually of 4-5 regiments. This would mean a brigade in full strength would number some 5000 men. But during the war regiments were already well under strength when reaching the armies, and due to desertion and high attrition, the average regiment strength was, depending on period of the war, somewhere between 370 and 450 men. For this reason, the game brigades have a maximum strength as mentioned above".



So it wants to use average Brigade sizes, ( why it thinks 272 US Cav Regiments, ie 68 Brigades with a larger authorised Regimental strength will be a lower average strength is something i will leave for another day, as i suspect its more to do with numbers of horses avaiable than manpower, AoT having over half its cav unhorsed at some points) fine, when mustered into service the average Inf Brigade size will different than the average Brigade size at any other point in time, min size was 780 US 850 CS, max size 1025 US 1350 CS for an infantry Regiment, US will accept 2,050 such Regiments and CS 1,009.


Its next major problem is to use the average for both sides rather than simulate the historical difference in Regimental and Brigade size difference between US and CS,by 63 ANV Divisions were twice the strength of AoP Divisions https://gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/battle-of-gettysburg-facts/strength-comparison-of-the-armies/

So, US average Regimental size.

"The average regimental strength 'present for duty,' in the Union army, was about 560 at Shiloh, and 650 at Fair Oaks, in the spring of 1862; 530 at Chancellorsville in May, 375 at Gettysburg in July, and 440 at Chickamauga in September, 1863; 440 at the Wilderness, and 305 in Sherman's army in May, 1864." Numbers and Losses in the Civil War in America, Thomas Livermore

Fox and Philsters works on US Regimental sizes are of the same order.

Which yields PFD by year for US Brigades in the field, and war time range of 372 to 650, not 370 to 450 as claimed, and this is without accounting for the larger CS Regimental size on average.

1861 650.
1862 560.
1863 (530 375 440) Average 448.
1864 (440 305) Average 372.

Regimental strength as a % of authorized strength
1861 65%
1862 55%
1863 44%
1864 36%


Deserters base rate for campaigns (factor)
0.10
Game has a base 10% desertion rate, ie the 10% or so who deserted did so and never served again and were permanent losses, when we know many returned to service after desertion, for instance, CS Miss Dept Dec 1863 to April 1864, Vols raised 11500, Conscripts, 13100, desertion returned, 9844, exchanged pows 5855, returning from hospitals, 9950, returning from furloughs 13529.

It also has a base 1% becoming sick a year, of which 25% will perish per year, 75% returning, but all desertions are total losses.

Lastly PFD is just that, a total present, it includes those sick, ,detached to other extra etc, and not avialable for combat use duty while the game puts all PFD in to combat as effectives, when PFD has to include all those other duties.


It goes on to use 4/5 Regiments for a Brigade, this is also a problem, as Brigades were from 2 to 6 Regiments,https://www.nps.gov/articles/from-regiment-to-president-the-structure-and-command-of-civil-war-armies.htm#:~:text=Brigade,-Gettysburg%20Foundation&text=During%20the%20Civil%20War%20a,but%20most%20commonly%20contained%20four. and by 65 could be 15 Regiments due to low Regimental strength and amalgamation of Regiments, or the opposite as double Coy sized Inf Regiments of c2400 were brought into service from garrison duty by the US in 64. This yields an historical average Brigade size of 4 Regiments.

Average Brigade size the game uses is US 4.5 Regiments of 1665-2025 range during the war, simulated as 3000 raised strength, despite also stating the Brigade would be 4500 when raised.If you combine, as the game does, the CS numbers,
Actual Brigade size during the war is 4 Regiments, of ♥♥♥♥-2600 range during the war. Actual range ( min to max authorized strength) when raised was for US 3120-4100.


So, its designed to put a freshly mustered Brigade (3k, when its own math show this to be wrong and should be 4500) of Regiments into service, at the average strength of a wartime Brigade after all attrition effects have reduced it to fraction of its mustering in numbers (4500 down to 1665-2025).

[HB]

Brigades numbers dont include Officers and musicians etc, the 3k, or any number value you see, is actual effective fighting strength.