About turtling

[BanneD]

Do you think going full turtle should be a viable strategy to beat the maps? So far everyone i see beating the 4th map at 500% is because they follow a certain strategy (pretty much the same everytime).

Early game drawing zombies to ballista with troops, micro the rangers in the first waves, then rotate to snipers and start to clear and build thanatos for late game waves. That strategy will most definitely help you expand as fast as possible (and some people do it with no pause). In my opinion, this game is the definition of turtling to survive but it doesn't really offer that. I know it's still in alpha, but i don't think that will change considering that most strategy games i've tried didn't offer something like that.

[Greep]

Turtling would be pretty boring though, especially given the focus on noise and territory and not units/towers. You may as well just play a free tower defense at that point. It also would be extremely imbalanced, as some maps have multiple entrypoints whereas I've seen some where a map had a single chokepoint.

[BanneD]

Well if you beat the 500% then every game you play, you basically repeat your actions in order to win. There's no diversity in the strategy you can use in order to win. How's that not boring?

[TacticalFriedRice]

reason why i got bored. same ♥♥♥♥ over and over again to win the game. Snipers, thanatos. they need new ♥♥♥♥.

[TacticalFriedRice]

oh these 7 wonders still probably wouldn't even alter the current strategy.

[Thuar]

Every singleplayer game dies after you play some time. That's why it's singleplayer. You play for so long, than you have nothing else to do anymore, can't beat other players, because there aren't any.

Every game is also repititive. What do you do in mmo's ? Grind/level/do dungeons/ rinse and repeat.

How many times did you play SC2 ? Exactly the same. People play the campaign once, maybe twice. Some even 3 times, but after that, you don't play the campaign anymore, because you've seen it all. So, you go play multiplayer.


There also is a difference in "boring".

turtling, or waiting till the enemy comes to you, is much more boring than actively seeking out the enemy and kill them on their grounds ;)


But not all games are for everyone. I don't really like FPS games, but do like the moba League of Legends. Although it's the same in such game also. You play the same map over and over and over, trying to beat the other team. Shame shizzle everywhere ;)

[Morphic]

I think this speaks more to a problem with Map 4 and 500% Difficulty rather than actual strategies/tactics being viable or the game being "boring".

You have some leeway on Maps 1-3 on 500% but not much. Whereas Map 4 500% pretty much has no leeway whatsoever and Noise Generation/RNG plays a much greater role than on the other maps.

Meanwhile on 100% aka "Normal" you can pretty much do anything and win ... except being slow. How is that different than other common RTSes? In StarCraft turtling works as an opener but if the enemy goes eco because they can now that you turtled ... you'll lose if you don't expand too. In C&C Turtling works well because you don't need to worry about collecting Resources since your Harvesters will automatically do it. Only thing you need to watch out for is Harvester harass or how far away the resources are.(Plus harvesters are beefy and like 90% of the game is mobile units that can quick respond)

TLDR:
Sounds to me like you are watching too many YouTube videos or reading guides instead of actually playing the game on Normal. However if you are on 500% because anything less is too easy for you... then there's little point in complaining. Harder difficulties make less things viable and require you to play in a certain way in order to win. Literally every game does that.

That said, the game can get repetitive regardless of difficulty. However that's a Content issue and not a Game issue.

[BanneD]

Originally posted by Setzway:

I think this speaks more to a problem with Map 4 and 500% Difficulty rather than actual strategies/tactics being viable or the game being "boring".

You have some leeway on Maps 1-3 on 500% but not much. Whereas Map 4 500% pretty much has no leeway whatsoever and Noise Generation/RNG plays a much greater role than on the other maps.

Meanwhile on 100% aka "Normal" you can pretty much do anything and win ... except being slow. How is that different than other common RTSes? In StarCraft turtling works as an opener but if the enemy goes eco because they can now that you turtled ... you'll lose if you don't expand too. In C&C Turtling works well because you don't need to worry about collecting Resources since your Harvesters will automatically do it. Only thing you need to watch out for is Harvester harass or how far away the resources are.(Plus harvesters are beefy and like 90% of the game is mobile units that can quick respond)

TLDR:
Sounds to me like you are watching too many YouTube videos or reading guides instead of actually playing the game on Normal. However if you are on 500% because anything less is too easy for you... then there's little point in complaining. Harder difficulties make less things viable and require you to play in a certain way in order to win. Literally every game does that.

That said, the game can get repetitive regardless of difficulty. However that's a Content issue and not a Game issue.

I wasn't really refering to repetitiveness but to the fact that there is only one strategy to beat the game. I enjoy a lot of Single player games that offer more than one way to win. My point is not why i should follow that specific strategy to win. My point is that there should be more than one strategies to beat the game. And i referred to turtling specifically cause well this is a survival game and i know for a fact that there are many people who enjoy having really small but greatly defended bases.

[Thuar]

lol Moforkus, I think it's you who only disagree with everyone. I have a lot of posts that are helpful, and where I agree with people. You are the one who think the game is garbage, so go do something else.

[Gin-chan]

@Moforkus you're still around dude?. I thought you said ♥♥♥♥ this game and left already since there should be no reason to hang around the forum of a game that no longer interests you.

As for the topic of turtling. Yes it is possible unless you're doing a map 4 500% or just map 4 in general but a certain amount of expansion would still be needed to mount an adequate defense thanks to how resources work in this game. You would basically be making expendable expansions where you expand without walls and very minor defenses just so you could get enough resources for your main walls and soldiers. Turtling would also mean making use of literally any delaying tactics you can think of to reduce the amount of stress your main walls will feel during each swarm wave. Be it spamming walls like a maze, scratching post towers. Ranger kites anything goes lol. It would definitely be a high tension game if nothing else.

[LordJashin]

Originally posted by SVD:

Every singleplayer game dies after you play some time. That's why it's singleplayer. You play for so long, than you have nothing else to do anymore, can't beat other players, because there aren't any.

Every game is also repititive. What do you do in mmo's ? Grind/level/do dungeons/ rinse and repeat.

How many times did you play SC2 ? Exactly the same. People play the campaign once, maybe twice. Some even 3 times, but after that, you don't play the campaign anymore, because you've seen it all. So, you go play multiplayer.


There also is a difference in "boring".

turtling, or waiting till the enemy comes to you, is much more boring than actively seeking out the enemy and kill them on their grounds ;)


But not all games are for everyone. I don't really like FPS games, but do like the moba League of Legends. Although it's the same in such game also. You play the same map over and over and over, trying to beat the other team. Shame shizzle everywhere ;)

not all games are repetitive

[Rammstein]

Funny fact: This is a SP game, and thats exactly the reason why we shouldnt have to discuss which strategy is ok to use.... :P

[Echofinger]

Hrm... define 'turtling'? Not to be an arse, but as a serious question. How big of a base is too big to be called a 'turtle' base? Do you expect to be able to complete a given game with 0 offense? No land taken at all, or is there a certain percentage of land you can take and still qualify as a 'turtle'?

By way of illustration, hit up our favorite They Are Billions YouTuber, Aznelite, and he very often completes maps without taking over the map.

We also had two threads around here somewhere that featured a few players going for victory with the smallest cities possible. Does 1200 population count for 'turtle'? 800? 600?

Also that amusing video on youtube where the guy takes on the final wave with 35 Thanatos... I am thinking you can likely make a pretty small city and win the final horde if allowing for Thanatos.

*shrugs*

I guess I am not buying the no turtle arguement 100%. Convince me.

[Moro]

Originally posted by Echofinger:

Hrm... define 'turtling'? Not to be an arse, but as a serious question. How big of a base is too big to be called a 'turtle' base? Do you expect to be able to complete a given game with 0 offense? No land taken at all, or is there a certain percentage of land you can take and still qualify as a 'turtle'?

By way of illustration, hit up our favorite They Are Billions YouTuber, Aznelite, and he very often completes maps without taking over the map.

We also had two threads around here somewhere that featured a few players going for victory with the smallest cities possible. Does 1200 population count for 'turtle'? 800? 600?

Also that amusing video on youtube where the guy takes on the final wave with 35 Thanatos... I am thinking you can likely make a pretty small city and win the final horde if allowing for Thanatos.

*shrugs*

I guess I am not buying the no turtle arguement 100%. Convince me.

wow, i was just watching the tiny base vids. thats pretty crazy right there. however, its not turtling. to get to that point you have to play normally expanding and so on. then the guy just sacrifices his entire map to defend his CC. which really is smart tbh in the overall scheme of things. you dont have to have everything survive... just your CC.

[Morphic]

Originally posted by Banned_:

I wasn't really refering to repetitiveness but to the fact that there is only one strategy to beat the game. I enjoy a lot of Single player games that offer more than one way to win. My point is not why i should follow that specific strategy to win. My point is that there should be more than one strategies to beat the game. And i referred to turtling specifically cause well this is a survival game and i know for a fact that there are many people who enjoy having really small but greatly defended bases.

I literally just told you there were other viable strategies ... on Normal.

On 500% you can't Turtle or else you instantly lose, due to how you get Resources. You also can't spam Soldiers and Rangers and expect to win either. You basically need to hold out until you get Snipers for Clear and then Thanatos to augment your defenses. However, again, that's only on 500% and, like I said earlier; Maps 1-3 give you leeway to play around. Not ideal to my tastes but then higher difficulties in other RTSes typically force you to use specific strategies in order to win.

Perhaps you didn't understand my post or misread? Though if you count having to build Tents and expand each and every game as being repetitive ... well, there's nothing I can say about that. Building SCVs for every game in StarCraft would mean StarCraft is repetitive then. (well, technically every game is repetitive lol)

That said, TAB is fundamentally different from most common RTSes so I think there is some friction with being able to clearly define set tactics. IMO, TAB is more akin to Age of Empires. Sure you can hard turtle right out the gate but eventually you'll run out of food. You effectively need to expand/tech up to Farms in AoE before you can really Turtle. Even then, you'll need to Tech to Markets and then spam Markets in order to compensate for not getting Gold. So you can't really Turtle in AoE until later on, pretty much like TAB.

TLDR: Theres a bunch of different tactics that are viable on "Normal" Difficulties. On the higher ones, yeah, you'll have to play in a specific way in order to win ... but that's the same for other games so no big deal IMO. Though I guess it comes down to how you define "Turtling" versus other Games. In Supreme Commander you can actually Turtle super hard without ever leaving your base, whereas in StarCraft and AoE; you gotta leave your base to get extra resources at some point.

Originally posted by Moforkus:

see what i mean banned? lol the same people (SVD, Setzway etc) like to tell everyone else they are wrong. this forum sucks....check their post history...i can't even think of a time they just agreed with anyone about anything...its always how you must be doing something wrong....sigh.

Oh look, someone who rejects reality and substitutes their own. Perhaps instead of trying to call others into an "us vs them" mentality you actually post something that isn't trolling.

[Morphic]

Originally posted by Moforkus:

so much arrogance...how difficult it must be for you to explain everything to all the lower beings out there...how everyone else is wrong (even in their opinions). you just can't stop yourself from arguing about literally anything. its funny, but also sad.

That's funny. You just described yourself. Literally every thread you post in, you attack others for not agreeing with you.

Originally posted by Moforkus:

literally everything on this forum you say is trying to tell someone how they are wrong in what they think about the game or how the changes they want aren't good....but ya i am trying to draw you into an us vs them debate lol...thats literally the way you act.

Nope. Just You and people like you that suggest things while only thinking about yourself.

Originally posted by Moforkus:

i think there is room for differing opinions...i just don't apprecaite the typical "well you don't understand, or you "misread" etc. people that don't agree with you aren't automatically wrong, and differing opinions are just that. you seem to take posts on this forum personally, and then set out to try to explain how the person is incorrect.

Again, you just described yourself. Please stop projecting.

Originally posted by Moforkus:

seriously..link some posts where you aren't telling someone they are wrong...

http://steamcommunity.com/app/644930/discussions/4/1699415798758279381/#c1699415798761876810

http://steamcommunity.com/app/644930/discussions/4/1699416432420942936/#c1699416432421677201

http://steamcommunity.com/app/644930/discussions/4/1692659135911691678/#c1692659135917966706

There you go. There's actually a lot more but this was just stuff I was still subscribed to, so it was easy to pull the URLs. I agree with a bunch of different people. I also disagree with people without telling them they are wrong... unless they are factually wrong or can't prove their claims.

Maybe you should stop being so arrogant and stop projecting yourself on others? Just a suggestion.

EDIT: Anyway, to get back on topic... I'm curious, has anyone managed to win, at any difficulty, without creating additional troops? Like you only use your 4 Rangers and Soldier and that's it or maybe up to a maximum of 20 units. I'd imagine it would be really tedious having to kite everything back to your base to let your Ballistas kill everything so you can expand. On the flipside I know a couple of people posted how they won without building Walls and just used Units to win...