Mutant Unit - Good, Bad, Decent?

[スカイSkyシ]

As the title says im wondering how the new mutant unit performs and if its worth research it in the campaign. with hes upkeep you could get 2 titans and 1 thanatos (oil upkeep) and the buildcost is visible higher as the one of titans.
How do they perform when they have to hold a line including infected mutants, chubbys, spitters?
I really would like to give them a try yet tech is limited and the production cost is far from cheap . even titans are cheap in comparsion^^
Edit: and whats about survival?

[[Death Watch] Молчаливый Боб]

If I wanted a tank at the foundry level , I would just ask for a tank or infantry fighting vehicle.Imagine a technique with huge armor , good speed and firepower that can crush zombies in packs....No Mutant, not even close.

The mutants are not its sphere of application is a primary school of their existence. When you can build a mutant - that means you're doing very well with the economy - a full city is built. And that's it. to move Lucifer to the barracks it is impossible - it is better to make another manufacturing building at the level of the stone workshop - which will include Lucifer and the new normal units fire support.

Here is an excerpt from the topic sentences and ideas.


New fire support workshop units:
I. Rider - just a simple guy on a horse(Yes you may not believe it but the horse in the post-Apocalypse is the surest means of movement) armed with a gun. The cost of 350 gold, 1 man, 3 units of food, 1 iron.
Features: 350 health, armor level 15 %, radius 15, the attack radius of 3.5, speed of 8.5 (Yes he is very fast!), attack damage 6. Attack speed 3.00 Features:
1) fast scout.
2) able to get away from any chase.
3) a moment of nostalgia for the wild West.
4) the Fastest shooter in the wild West.

For its construction will also require - livestock farm.
Livestock farm - studied in a stone workshop. Does not require meadows for its construction. The volume of food production depends on the invested gold:
- buy a sheep 250 gold content 2 gold. Food +15. (you can buy up to 20 units)
- buy a goat 400 gold, the content of 3 gold, Food +17 (you can buy up to 20 units).
- Buy a cow 800 gold, the content of 5 gold food +22, you can buy up to 20 units.

Upgrading scout(Arsenal):
1) Magnum 44 - increases damage +5. Available in the presence of a wooden workshop.
2) Improved power - increases movement speed by +1, health +50.Available with a stone workshop.
3) Activated ability with the recovery time - throw a grenade - the rider throws a grenade causing AoE damage within a radius of 2 cells from the point of hit in 60 units. Recovery time is 80 seconds. Available with a stone workshop
4) Advanced armor scout gains +5 % armor, 50 % poison and fire resistance. Available in the presence of the foundry.
The rider best implements the idea of a fast scout and mobile distracting tank. It is not too expensive, is available in the middle of the game, but it can not be the main unit - because of the low damage. In his role he significantly wins have a mutant - so as cheap, effective and serves those same functions.

II. Airship - is a flying unit, vulnerable only to attacks of poisoned zombies and giants(because of the size).
It is important to note the evolving role of firepower through a series of upgrades. Characteristics of 600 health units. Armor 5 %. Movement speed 1.8. The sight radius of 18. Attack range 15. Attack speed 1.
Can't be hired in a tavern!!!
Initially armed with a ballista (ballista similar to a conventional building).
The price of 1000 gold 40 wood, 40 iron, 8 people, 5 units of food, constantly consumes 5 units of wood per day, gold 15 units. Limit only 1 unit per workshop upgrade level (4 in total).
Deals damage to all in the affected area (zombies, units, buildings)
Upgrade:
1) high-Explosive gun - replaces the ballista gun with AOE attack(deals 75 damage in a radius of 4 cells). Available with wood and stone workshop.
2) Automated charging - increases attack speed by +1.5.Available with wood and stone workshop.
3) Increased shrapnel capacity - increases damage to 110 units within a 9-cell radius. Available in the presence of wood and stone workshop, foundry.
4) Automated charge control - increases the attack radius by +1, attack speed up to 4.00 Available in the presence of wood and stone workshop, foundry and engineering center.

The airship may well be in the post-Apocalypse, at least due to the fact that it is
technologically less expensive in terms of retention in the air. As it is modernized, it becomes a very powerful unit of support, justifying the funds invested in it.

III. Battle tank - in the realities of the post Apocalypse is a relic of the lost Golden age of mankind. Mobile fortress, weapon of destruction. In the game you can build one such unit for 1 fire support workshop(which has all levels of modernization.)
Stats: health 1000, armor 75% (fire immunity, poison resistance 50%), movement speed 2.0. Overview 8, attack distance 15, damage 250 units in a radius of 4 cells, attack speed 1. Price 1000 gold, 50 units of wood, 50 units of stone, 50 units of iron, 50 units of oil.
Constantly consumes its contents 5 units of oil and of iron per day.
Can't be hired in a tavern!!!
Can't shoot through walls!!
Deals damage to all in the affected area (zombies, units, buildings).
Very Important - has a maximum attack range of 15 units and a minimum attack range of 5 units. All units which are closer than 5 units to the Tank - can't be attacked for them!!! Modernization (available only in the construction of a wooden and stone workshop. Foundry. barracks and engineering shop. Miracle - victorious!!!):
1) Dual gun - increases the rate of fire to 2.5.
2) Improved engine -increases movement speed to 3.
3) Intelligent ammo - no longer damages when attacking units and player buildings.
4) Experienced crew - reduces the minimum range to 3

Thus, in the case of a powerful economy and having a worthy goal - a battle tank can provide the player with crushing firepower, but he can not hope to stand against a Horde of zombies, as they can surround and destroy him - because of the minimum radius of attack!!!

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by urlings_55:

Originally posted by Skygirl:

those 20 soldiers will be easy overrun by harpie and runner spam.. and they especialy talking of harpies die. the mutant in the other hand gonna have a nice time retreating.
you cant rly compare soldiers with mutants.. they simple are completly different units with the only similarity that both can hold a line a bit when it matters^^
and still only cause damage on soldiers is higher doesent rly say anything when an other unti uses aoe damage.. to compare the damage yu simple would have to put 20 infected vs 20 soldiers or 1 mutant and see who kills faster. in that case soldiers cause its just 20 but if it gets more and more infected aoe damage becomes more powerfull^^

cant compare a ranger with a sniper either cause they are the absolute opposite of eachother, 1 is a quiet scout unit while the other is a slow moving high caliber unit^^

anyway i said my oppinion about it and feel the mutant is not worth its costs but easly beats 20 soldiers when fighting a swarm, and if ''♥♥♥♥ comes down on you'' the mutant outruns even harpies while the solders will be ded^^

Soldiers can outrun runners, and can outdamage harpies. Any situation where 20 soldiers are being overrun by harpies, is a situation where a mutant will atleast be running for its life. Let's also not forget that soldiers have more armor than a mutant to begin with, and get additiona 50% bonus armor vs spitters. That leaves only one rather narrow situation where a mutant can outsurvive a huge amount of harpies, but not by outdamaging them, only by running away. And since harpies are faster than mutants you have to keep running. Better have a good wall with towers filled up with soldiers to run back too... oh wait. Also, when soldiers are getting overrun by harpies, what you can do is sacrifice a few and run away with the rest. It's like the whole group has to die.

Yes, you can compare 20 soldiers to 1 mutant. Why wouldn't you be able to. Just put them in each and the same situation. Done. If you can't compare soldiers to a mutant because they are different, then you neither can compare titans to mutants, because by that same logic they are diffierent. Which is a reasoning I don't follow. There are simple criteria: damage output and survivability. Based on that you perfectly compare any unit composition to a different one. And soldiers are such allrounders: they perform well in almost every situation, so they are applicable in most cases. And of course you can compare snipers to rangers. Infact there are achievements for using only snipers and only rangers. Basically rangers do very poor all round even in very high numbers, and snipers do well but only once you hit critical mass. But all else I had them in roughly the same situations and therefore I can perfectly make comparisons. Just because you are not realistically using rangers for clearing the map in a normal game, doesn't mean you can't. Just because you think it is crazy, and it is crazy, to kill a giant with just rangers, doesn't mean it is impossible. You can compare them and objectively say snipers fair much better in most situations, but you can still compare them in the first place. Like you can with soldiers vs mutant.

Again, there will be a few situations of course a mutant will be better than soldiers. Dealing with a very high number of runner zombies for example. However, I never find myself being overwelmed by runner zombies unless it is a wave, and for waves I use shocking towers. Wouldn't you say 20 soldiers and 2 shocking towers would outclass 2 mutants?

Oh btw, fun fact: 20 soldiers with very good micro can actually kill a behemoth mutant. A mutant cannot kill a behemoth mutant.

20 soldiers wont outdamage lots and lots of harpies.a few harpies thesy can deal with but theres always gonna be too much. a mutan has movement speed of 6 a harpie 5 so a mutant outruns a harpie, pls at least know their stats.
the time your soldiers get overrun by harpies it will be near impossible retreating with some if you cant hold for maybe 10 sec with the ''frontline'' or they get aggroed next.

anyway as i said soldiers vs mutan is a comparsion which doesent work cause they have completly different cost and usage. cant compare snipers to rangers either cause they take 2 completly different roles. a titan is a high end oil upkeep with similar tasks as a mutant so you can compare their costs/efficiency. a soldier spam of course can at one point overwhelm mutants/titans but so can ranger or snipers..but you dont needto let soldeirs fight mutants or titans.. you fight beside them each doign their role and a mutant and titan role is to hold the line. a soldier can hold a line too but its more optimal using real tank units to hold the line.

i simple say you cant compare snipers to rangers is cause they have completly different tasks and its not fair comparing a ranger to as sniper in basic paper stats, its about how god they do their ''main target'' and snipers simple are here to deal with harpies and spittters in endgame waves while rangers are your early game scouts which lure almost no zombies. neither fair to compare a titan to lucifers by raw stats.. a titan always even in combat perform better as lucifer apart of small narrow passes without elites in which the lucifer with hes small aoe can do potentialy more dps.
omly cause a certain mass of any unit can potentialy do everything it doesnet mean you can compare them in a fair way. TAB units are all having their own role and tend to be the best in this category but perform worse in others so you dont just use 2000 soldiers when you could use 50 titans if its not for giving yourself a challange but that isnt efficient playing.

snipers are here to deal with elites from far range that they dont even hit your defenses.
soldiers to hold a line to give the snipers time to deal the damage ad themself do good damage.
thanatos are asolutely bad in clearing maps but do great in defense.
lucifers are rly bad agaisnt big swarms but narrow swarm attacks without elites is their ''speciality.
titans and mutants are here to hold your most frontline and protect your weaker protected units and both can retreat fast to quick regen hp. and titans also have high range dps and can somewhat do the job of snipers too.
rangers are simple quiet scout troops doing some clearing and scouting till you can risk sending out snipers/soldiers whatsoever and dealwith the incoming aggro

now you can potentialy use each of them in every task(and compare them) with enough but were not talking about can but about whats best and so we use each unit for their given task if theres no good reason not to.. like soldiers are your early/midgame titans but later could get reinforced with them.
you reinforce your defense lines in the endgame with multiple different units for best ''all around protection''.. for example snipers titans executors maybe 1 or 2 shock towers a line and some soldiers to hold tjhe line with titans once they break trough. using 1k soldiers and nothing else works but its potentialy more expensive, more difficult in the given time to recruit, not as ef ficient and so forth. and if you use 1k soldiers instead of a f ew hundred your worker and especialy food counter gonna suffer far more as if you used in compasrsion better performing units like a titan with lower food cost and worker cost

your fun fact once again makes no sense cause mutant do aoe damage and soldier high single target so of course with 3k less health as behemoth mutants and aoe damage rather then high single target it will lose. thats not how you use a mutant, then again you could tank the behemoth with one and let the others deal the damage.

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by urlings_55:

Originally posted by Skygirl:

20 soldiers wont outdamage lots and lots of harpies.a few harpies thesy can deal with but theres always gonna be too much. a mutan has movement speed of 6 a harpie 5 so a mutant outruns a harpie, pls at least knw their stats

I just checked, and yes the movement speed is what you say. Still, you are wrong about soldiers unable to kill lots and lots of harpies. You can micro soldiers into small groups and each target one harpy for instance. I do stand with the note that any group of harpy that overruns 20 soldiers, will make a mutant run away. And it's not like the mutant will shake the harpies off immediately with only a difference of 1 in speed.

Also glad we are now down to just to this very single situation ;). Even if a mutant would classify better here, there are not a lot of other situations where they are better.

so basicly you wanna pause the game and manualy select for 1 soldier 1 harpie. well in theory that works butis super annoying and time consumign to do every single time. if you like playing that way go for it thats for sure in theory more efficient but i rather just go with a big chunk of soldier snipers and titans and smash hundrerds of enemys away without having to micro too much just at times take ''fire breaks'' to not lure more as they kill.

20 harpies on 1 mutant though hum... lets say it that way he most likely kills them if no reinforcment comes in before he dies but he will take quite a while to be back on full hp so rather dont do that..not as if mutant is a great unit apart of speed and hp pool(which recover too slow, 8 hp on 800 titan and only 10 on 2k mutant.. way too small)

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by urlings_55:

Originally posted by Skygirl:

so basicly you wanna pause the game and manualy select for 1 soldier 1 harpie. well in theory that works butis super annoying and time consumign to do every single time. if you like playing that way go for it thats for sure in theory more efficient but i rather just go with a big chunk of soldier snipers and titans and smash hundrerds of enemys away without having to micro too much just at times take ''fire breaks'' to not lure more as they kill.

20 harpies on 1 mutant though hum... lets say it that way he most likely kills them if no reinforcment comes in before he dies but he will take quite a while to be back on full hp so rather dont do that..not as if mutant is a great unit apart of speed and hp pool(which recover too slow, 8 hp on 800 titan and only 10 on 2k mutant.. way too small)

And you can do that. Get 120 soldiers , have them have all upgrades, and you don't even have to bother about giants. But a group of 20 soldiers needs attention, just like you can't put a mutant on set and forget.

And you edited your previous while I already replied to it. I'm not considering to read and answer to that in such a case. All my points remain valid.

well i said in last post was that i estimate he survives 20 harpies in the edit...but most likely drops really low(and will take ages to replenish hp). not bothering about giants.. well in open fiel d i feel more secure having 1 tank such as a titan just in case your soldiers ♥♥♥♥ up. their dps is enough but i rather play save^^

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by urlings_55:

Ok sorry,

Originally posted by Skygirl:

well i said in last post was that i estimate he survives 20 harpies in the edit...but most likely drops really low(and will take ages to replenish hp). not bothering about giants.. well in open fiel d i feel more secure having 1 tank such as a titan just in case your soldiers ♥♥♥♥ up. their dps is enough but i rather play save^^

Soldiers tend to ♥♥♥♥ up early game when you don't have critical mass. I did loose 20 veteran soldiers on numerous occasions, but not against 20 harpies, but 40-50 harpies. And that of course sucks, but you can't expect any unit or any composition of units with that same resource cost to win that fight. What I should have done in that situation is leave 5 soldiers behind and retreat the rest. Soldiers, and especially veterans, can soke up heaps of damage. Enough to get the others out of aggro range in time.

well i dont know if soldiers can be fast enough gone to be otu of harpies aggro range but snipers in that case are ded af. with all the buffs i tend to prefer having 50% 50% lol.in campaign soldiers could even come to the range of sniper almost but are faster and dont die like a glasscannon

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by urlings_55:

Originally posted by Skygirl:

well i dont know if soldiers can be fast enough gone to be otu of harpies aggro range but snipers in that case are ded af. with all the buffs i tend to prefer having 50% 50% lol.in campaign soldiers could even come to the range of sniper almost but are faster and dont die like a glasscannon

I did it on multiple occasions. Snipers are too slow to get out of such a situation, but soldiers have good speed.

And yes, the buffs on the soldiers are insane. And combine the buffs with your train upgrades and you will get them very early on. In survival I usually wait with all out map clearing until I have thanatos, but late in the campaign by the time I fancy a foundry I already have enough firepower and cleared that much of the map. I just don't require oil based units by that point. Frankly speaking, for my next playthrough I am just not going to invest research points into the engineering center. It was by far the dumbest mistake I made.

some swarm missions will be difficult without having titans i estimate. the infected mutant one and infected giant one im talking about.. not sure how well you can do those without a high hp pool unit. losing some soldiers in theory doesent hurt but the infected giant one i did was quite tricky even with titans to hold the line temporay with lots of backup units. 1 titan is like 15 soldiers in cost for swarms. if you lose more then 15 soldiers per giant you screwed^^ needs lots of micro and only hold 1 line at once..but then risk that giants come im at other side before yur rdy.
by now i still didnt buy the thanatos for campaign though, even though its in my favorite defense unit during survival. if you do NOT go for enginner workshop which works you can fully buff inn and get those untis that way. getting all my thanatos that way

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by urlings_55:

Originally posted by Skygirl:

some swarm missions will be difficult without having titans i estimate. the infected mutant one and infected giant one im talking about.. not sure how well you can do those without a high hp pool unit. losing some soldiers in theory doesent hurt but the infected giant one i did was quite tricky even with titans to hold the line temporay with lots of backup units. 1 titan is like 15 soldiers in cost for swarms. if you lose more then 15 soldiers per giant you screwed^^ needs lots of micro and only hold 1 line at once..but then risk that giants come im at other side before your rdy.

I never used titans for the swarms. Just a composition of soldiers, snipers and wasps. Worked out like a charm

i either use lucifers or titans.. or for fun mutants(not cause efficient in cost) to tank so not sure how it is without a tank but most swarms you have far too many points available to beat it, hopefully they buff swarms a bit or lower imperium points . apart of the mutant and giant one all are quite easy. and the mutant one is easy with titans at least

[Octogenarian]

Originally posted by amordron:

Originally posted by Druga Runda:

Titan can get stuck, and is too slow to run away from dozen harpies. Mutant does not have either issue. Also Titan 800HP, Mutant 2000HP, 2.5x time to react and 2x speed to safely run away.

In other words Titan can still get overrun, and you have to pay at least some attention, with Mutant you can set it and forget it, wait for audio warning, knowing you can still get away no matter what.

If your going to try to make yourself seam correct at least get your facts straight.

snip

Fair point about armour, and yes Titans are a better investment, however it is still my opinion that this mutant is OP, and the primary reason for that is speed combined with health advantage. (even though I did not demonstrate it well :) )

With Titans I do feel that I can (and I did) lose them when not paying attention, when triggering mini-hordes. With mutants, it does not seem to happen.

Titans are a much better investment, when both are used optimally, and I cannot argue that point, but that does not take away that as currently constructed mutant is OP. Perhaps if they took the speed down to 5 from 6, or introduce a weakness to something so it has to be attended
at least a little bit, but than again there would be even less reason to build them with current cost structure.

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by Druga Runda:

Originally posted by amordron:

If your going to try to make yourself seam correct at least get your facts straight.

snip

Fair point about armour, and yes Titans are a better investment, however it is still my opinion that this mutant is OP, and the primary reason for that is speed combined with health advantage. (even though I did not demonstrate it well :) )

With Titans I do feel that I can (and I did) lose them when not paying attention, when triggering mini-hordes. With mutants, it does not seem to happen.

Titans are a much better investment, when both are used optimally, and I cannot argue that point, but that does not take away that as currently constructed mutant is OP. Perhaps if they took the speed down to 5 from 6, or introduce a weakness to something so it has to be attended
at least a little bit, but than again there would be even less reason to build them with current cost structure.

they are far from op..speed alone doesent make a unit good if they cant do much else. the titan can do some damage and take itself some but less as 2.5 titans (in price comparsion its 2,5 titans) if speed was all that matters rangers would be massively op. op means overpowered which i assume you do know but use it wrong in my oppinion^^ mutans have only speed going for them. the big health pool is nice ye with same costs you could have goten 2,5 -3 titans and would be more tanky. titans need a buff or cost reduction NOT NERFS.

[Whisper]

Originally posted by Druga Runda:

I would suggest against nerfing an unit that is currently struggling at the meta. It's price makes it the less useful of the oil units.

[[Death Watch] Молчаливый Боб]

I propose on the contrary to enhance the mutant:
1). Finally to determine the role of the movable tank. Leave a high level of health. Armor increase to 45%. Leave high speed movement.
2) Remove the consumption of oil from the daily consumption - even if it is expensive and requires oil for construction, but will not consume it in the daily content.
3) to make adequate AOE attack in front of him with a radius of 2.5 cells and raise the damage to 40.
In this capacity, it will be a tank that will support other units standing in the breach.

[amordron]

Originally posted by Death Watch Молчаливый Боб:

I propose on the contrary to enhance the mutant:
1). Finally to determine the role of the movable tank. Leave a high level of health. Armor increase to 45%. Leave high speed movement.
2) Remove the consumption of oil from the daily consumption - even if it is expensive and requires oil for construction, but will not consume it in the daily content.
3) to make adequate AOE attack in front of him with a radius of 2.5 cells and raise the damage to 40.
In this capacity, it will be a tank that will support other units standing in the breach.

Number two is two much If any iron tier unit has that happen to only makes sense for luci when he’s dropped to stone tech like a few have suggested for him.

Oil consumption drop is made to limit iron tier allowing them to be powerful beasts removing that makes your other two suggestions to much to the point he should be nerfed. As if he dosent reduce oil produce there is no limit to them and yes you could make 1000 than witch enough time. Even if weak dps 1000 would be op. Witch is why a limiter is needed to keep them in check allowing for them to be powerful units. While making his reason to exist only after you got titans to oil limit to dump funds as you can just turn your oil loss so you gain oil and oil upkeep is slightly after making them at no oil cost as you won’t have oil for the upkeep than. That’s not a good place for a unit better him to stand on.

Number 1 alone would make him viable but not good would need a life regen buff at the same time to be about 1.5x titans regen. While the ehp boost is to little should at least match titans 60 percent Armor to make him wortg the 2.5x titans costs. Ideally with 3k hp to make him a better tank with worse dps. A tank should have lower dps than a hybrid like titans. And lower dps than a pure like Thanatos in a fair cost to cost comp. we don’t need another titan that just costs more that’s a step up in every way but melee vs range he should have his own clear role as a tank.

The damage increase don’t think he needs as a tank. His damage thou low is fine if he has good tankabilty as his damage comes from support. We don’t need a unit that is a jack of all trades like titan to compete for the same spot in the army but only melee. Mutant should stand on its own in his role as a tank without trying to replace another unit. A slight bump up I can see as his a bit on the low side but not really as a radii jump. If he gets a radii jump his damage really should go down as stacking units with large radiis even with low dps gets redic fast. 2.5 vs 2 radii is quite big jump in dps as much as it dosent appear to be.

Of the three only doing one would make sense not all 3. If you meant doing only one should make that clear as right now your post reads as doing all 3. Really only number 1 makes sense to maintain him as a tank. His dps is already ok for a tank his flaw is survivabilty via low ehp and regen.

[Commando 2000]

For the infected ones, I would say, if it can maximize its true mobility strength and leap through walls like harpy. It would be a really pain in the ass. Although I was expecting it to one-hit my soldiers but nope. Walls of guns are still something.

[スカイSkyシ]

Originally posted by Commando 2000:

For the infected ones, I would say, if it can maximize its true mobility strength and leap through walls like harpy. It would be a really pain in the ass. Although I was expecting it to one-hit my soldiers but nope. Walls of guns are still something.

not even the infected giants can 1 shoot soldiers, would be brutal if those fast mutans could^^

[ec928]

I found mutants to be excellent in the last mission. Once I grouped a few of them together, they were great. Very quick, with excellent AOE damage, and very tanky barely taking any damanage.

They were the only units I had who could go head to head with a horde of zombie in open ground, push them back, and wipe them out.

Some advice: if you decide to use them offensively, I'd avoid using Mutants alone versus an entire horde. For offensive use, they work best in groups, as their AOE damage will kill melee enemies before they can hit back, which makes them extremely tanky against large groups of melee zombies. (edit: and I wouldn't use the mutant offensively against ranged spitters, but against most zombies, he's great)

While he isn't good at everything, in that last mission, on the final wave, my 6 mutants completely outperformed my 30 titans, several who got swarmed and died.