Viable Melee Cleric

[wendigo211]

Does such a thing exist in Pathfinder:Kingmaker? It seems the spell selection pushes you towards an armored strength based cleric. But on the higher difficulty levels, you just can't get an AC that won't get you squished if an enemy decides to focus on you. This is a particular problem at end game where you have to deal with a lot of touch attacks. The idea is for a character who can contribute to a small party (2 or 3) so that you can hit some of the higher levels (say 18 or 19). After some experimentation, the best I could come up with is a Monk 1/Eclessitheurge 19.

Here's the build:
Race: Aasimar (+DEX, +WIS)
Diety: Torag (Protection and Artifice domains help)
Alignment: Lawful Good
Attributes:
STR 11
DEX 19->24
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 7 (channeling sucks anyway)

1. Monk 1: Weapon Finesse, Crane Style
   
2. Cleric 1
   
3. Cleric 2: Dodge
   
4. Cleric 3
   
5. Cleric 4: Deflect Arrows
   
6. Cleric 5
   
7. Cleric 6: Blind Fight
   
8. Cleric 7
   
9. Cleric 8: Crane Wing
   
10. Cleric 9
    
11. Cleric 10: Wings
    
12. Cleric 11
    
13. Cleric 12: Crane Riposte
    
14. Cleric 13
    
15. Cleric 14: Piranha Strike
    
16. Cleric 15
    
17. Cleric 16: Metamagic (Extend)
    
18. Cleric 17
    
19. Cleric 18: Weapon Focus (Unarmed, or another weapon if you can find a good agile one that works with flurry)
    
20. Cleric 19

So by endgame your AC should be:
10 Base
-1 Size (Frightful Aspect)
+11 Dex (24 base +8 item)
+7 Wisdom (18 base +8 item)
+1 Dodge
+4 Defensive Fighting with Crane Style
+5 Shield of Faith
+2 Eagle Soul
+8 Seamantle
+5 Protector's Robe
+5 Gyrrona's Amulet (57 Touch AC)
+8 Bracers
+4 Magic Vestments
+5 Barkskin
+6 Frightful Aspect
80 Total (83 vs. melee from Wings)
You could get an extra 4 AC from Shield but you would need an Alchemist with infusion to cast it and that character might not make the cut for a small party. You might also want to use the Robe of Eyes instead of the Protector's Robe for Uncanny Dodge

Obviously AB and Damage are a problem. Your BAB is 15 and you don't have a lot of AB buffs. Hopefully, once Divine Power is fixed, you can get an okay AB. Right now your AB should be:
15
-1 Size
+11 Dex (24 Base +8 Item)
+1 Prayer
+1 Burst of Glory
+3 Divine Favor
+5 Enhancement Bonus on Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
-4 Piranha Strike
32 Total
You should be able to get another +4 from Greater Heroism (or Heroic Invocation) +1 from Haste and possibly a Bardic Inspiration depending on your party.
For damage you're really just looking at the weapon, +8 from Piranha strike, hopefully your dex bonus with an Agile weapon, +3 from Divine Favor, and two size increase bonuses from Lead Blades (Artifice Domain) and Frightful Aspect. I suppose you could get some extra damage from Geniekind as well.

All things considered the build is okay, but quite lacklustre compared to what the arcane melee builds can do. Does anyone have a melee cleric build that blows this one out of the water?

[Madscientist]

If you want a small party you need DAMAGE and thats the main problem with this char.

Eclessitheurge has very limited weapons, so I post the monk ones: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, short sword, shortspear, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear, and any weapon with the monk special weapon quality.
You need a light weapon weapon with the agile property. You can only use flurry unarmed or with a monk weapon. You are a lv1 monk so your fist does 1d6 damage.
Even if you find an agile kama or sai, your damage will still be much lower than any dual wielder (especially when they have sneak attacks) or any fighter or barbarien with a huge weapon and tons of strengh. (1.5x str modifier, more BAB, weapon with more base damage and higher crit chance )

Maybe ( I am not sure ) it could work as tank/healer/buffer for the party, if you heal/buff only outside of combat. In combat you are engaged by enemies and casting would provoke AOO and interrupts.

[Madscientist]

Would this concept work better with a bard? (cha instead of wis, scalded fist monk)

Your damage sucks, but you can be quite tanky (especially with arcane buffs like displacement) and you can passively support the party while you tank.

[[TGC] MadGod]

If you do not need burst damage but consistent damage driving the opponent nuts, you take a god with a decent melee weapon as a patron and the strength domain. Like Gorum.

You get a greatsword proficiency and enlarge person as a domain spell. Since you will not be a fighter, you will be spending all your usual spell feats on weapon stuff. Otherwise you will be a full 9 level caster with a high will save. Which is usually the weak spot of fighters.

If you choose your spells right, you will be nigh unkillable in melee but you will never outdamage any mediocre rogue, fighter or ranger. You can dip a level into fighter to get heavy armor, martial weapons and bonus feat for free. Then you can choose any god you like that does have support spells for your melee career. Still 9 spell levels, you lose a caster level, not too bad.

In the end you have full heavy armor, can wield all weapons (due to lack of specialization, you just grab the one with the most damage) but you will neither be the stronges caster nor the strongest fighter. You will most likely die last. :)

Ecclesitheurge would be the worst pick for a melee cleric...ever. Still you will need to have 14 con, 16 str. 13 dex from the bat at least...say bye-bye to int and cha. Or take a dwarf. One feat less (hurts), but both main stats of a melee cleric covered.

[wendigo211]

I agree damage is the issue with this build, but I don't see a way of making a Cleric that can deal good damage but won't get shredded by any enemy who decides to take a swing at him. And enemies will switch targets from your tank to a low AC target.

It can't be replaced by a Bard, Bard just doesn't have some of the spells you need/want from a Cleric.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by TGC MadGod:

If you do not need burst damage but consistent damage driving the opponent nuts, you take a god with a decent melee weapon as a patron and the strength domain. Like Gorum.

You get a greatsword proficiency and enlarge person as a domain spell. Since you will not be a fighter, you will be spending all your usual spell feats on weapon stuff. Otherwise you will be a full 9 level caster with a high will save. Which is usually the weak spot of fighters.

If you choose your spells right, you will be nigh unkillable in melee but you will never outdamage any mediocre rogue, fighter or ranger. You can dip a level into fighter to get heavy armor, martial weapons and bonus feat for free. Then you can choose any god you like that does have support spells for your melee career. Still 9 spell levels, you lose a caster level, not too bad.

In the end you have full heavy armor, can wield all weapons (due to lack of specialization, you just grab the one with the most damage) but you will neither be the stronges caster nor the strongest fighter. You will most likely die last. :)

Ecclesitheurge would be the worst pick for a melee cleric...ever. Still you will need to have 14 con, 16 str. 13 dex from the bat at least...say bye-bye to int and cha. Or take a dwarf. One feat less (hurts), but both main stats of a melee cleric covered.

Problem with those characters is that they get one shot on the higher difficulty levels because of the crappy AC. I've beaten the game on unfair already, so I know what works and what doesn't work. Any heavy armor cleric just gets splatted.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

I agree damage is the issue with this build, but I don't see a way of making a Cleric that can deal good damage but won't get shredded by any enemy who decides to take a swing at him. And enemies will switch targets from your tank to a low AC target.

That is the entire point of a melee cleric. Being a pain in the ass. You cannot ignore a full caster in heavy armor wielding a greatsword ... at least not if he is buffed to the eyebrows. The CRPG version of that is "if it does not do melee damage, I look elsewhere". Which is sad but a fact.

I ran a barbarian/cleric on many occasions (nice with Gorum for RP reasons). Enlarge, various ac buffs, damage shield, rage, charge. Sadly, there is no channel smite which increases your single-target damage output considerably.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Problem with those characters is that they get one shot on the higher difficulty levels because of the crappy AC. I've beaten the game on unfair already, so I know what works and what doesn't work. Any heavy armor cleric just gets splatted.

Well, I only play with all settings on "1" and "normal". The higher difficulties are not difficulties, they break the system since they meddle with numbers you should not meddle with. Doing so causes the entire system to fail.

If I need a 50s AC to not get hit with every strike, someone has done something terribly wrong. That is why I usually just chuckle about the complaints that state "on unfair, I cant even beat a nereid...wtf!". You ordered the mess, you eat it up. :)

And I am quite sure, If I spend some time thinking, I can come up with a heavy armor character that is harder to hit than your attempt, but surely not because of AC. Then the question arises, will you get the items to do the character.

In this game on high difficulty...hm. And since the AI is too dumb to really dispel smartly, your monk/cleric will be fine.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by TGC MadGod:

And I am quite sure, If I spend some time thinking, I can come up with a heavy armor character that is harder to hit than your attempt, but surely not because of AC. Then the question arises, will you get the items to do the character.

I'd love to see it, if you can come up with it. I've thought of a few different approaches: using a reach weapon with size increase buffs and movement impairment spells (what do you against archers, and enemy saves are high enough that the tactic won't work all the time), combat maneuvres (enemy CMDs are insane), damage reduction (can't get more than 10 from the cleric spells and that's like trying to put out a bonfire by spitting on it). You can't even get damage mitigation like mirror image (Trickery domain does give you a mirror image like ability, but it's only one image)

I know the character I posted will work, but it's a shame that I can't build something like a two-handed cleric since they really hit like a truck.

[[TGC] MadGod]

It all boils down to the domain spells, actually. I would have to dig a bit to find the really nice ones that fit melee. Either enlarge (can be done with pots tho and even in combat) or mirror image/displacement/various invis stuff/blink.

If blessing of fervor is in game, we will not need haste, since BoF is a superior buff and only a level 4 spell (so in theory, you could buy a wand of that spell that buffs you for 7 rounds/charge. if that option were in game.)

Reach weapons are a two-edged sword since you will be missing out 7+ AC points and maybe magic effects due to lack of shield.

[wendigo211]

You can see the domain spells here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1529301866

The list might need updating with the new spells from 1.1

[bkgamingacc]

The build you come up with is very nice, i am playing a similar build.

1 Rogue / 1 Monk / 18 Eclessitheurge
Lawful Evil Human 7/18/14/7/19/8
Norgorber: Charm,Trickery Domains

I picked Human for an extra Feat, i got weapon finesse as a rogue, gives me 2 extra features to spend on spell focus/greater spell focus enchantment. I focus more on CC, sneak attacks improve my damage a bit. I play on hard with a party of 4. CC isnt as reliable as i would like but not a major issue. Might be a problem in Unfair thou.

Has 1 Less BAB and not as much AC as your build but Trickery Domain copycat as move action is useful.

[wendigo211]

I looked at the Trickery domain, how are you finding copycat ability?

I have noticed that you get a sneak attack anytime your weapon rolls for damage. So if you have the alchemists gloves that add 1D6 acid damage, you get a sneak attack for the main attack and a sneak attack for the 1d6 acid damage. You can do the same with the damage boost from Geniekind. It's horribly broken for a Transformation using melee AT build who could be getting 45D6 sneak attack damage on each attack. It's a shame there's no "Divine Trickster" class (or Sacred Fist for that matter).

[bkgamingacc]

Sneak attack triggering with acid glove ? I dont think it supposed to happen.
That is as broken as multi sneak attacks with Scorching/Hellfire ray.
I must try 4ES/xAT/yEK builds with TWF now with acid gloves on :)

Copycat is too micro intensive , need to refresh it almost every round in tough battles and spell resistance is becoming a problem for my build. Guess i was too optimistic to think that my CCs would land at harder settings . I should have left battle control to wizards.

[wendigo211]

If you want real fun use Knife Master and turn those d6s into d8s. Yeah, it's a huge bug, but who knows if/when Owlcat will get around to fixiing it?