Sage Sorc vs exploiter/pact wiz(CotW mod)

[j_duthie]

I've seen this comparison a bunch of times but never specifically in reference to the call of the wild mod. The meta magic adept change to the sage seems to go a long way to shore up the sorcerers greatest weakness but the combination of the implementation of quick study and spontaneous casting from your patron makes the EP almost sorcerer like itself. However I can't seem to find the equivalent of the potent magic exploit so it seems the EPs potential isn't quite as high.

Anyone have any thoughts on their relative strengths? Which patron/curse combination is the strongest? It seems like reclusive might be the best but also a pain in the neck.

[Frostfeather]

For Pact Wizards, I like Flame Curse the best, personally. The group can take advantage of it through Kineticists, bombs (especially an Alchemist with Fast Bombs), sneak attack Scorching Rays maybe with Metamagic, Flame Arrow'd archers, etc. A Kineticist + a Flame Cursing party member is particularly efficient and effective. Fire immunity is very rare in this game, so that helps make it a good pick.

But it kind of comes down to what your group needs and what your personal playstyle is like. They're all good choices, really, which makes it hard. Honestly I usually take both a Sorcerer and a Wizard.

[j_duthie]

Flame curse looks like it's from wotr unless I'm missing something.

[Frostfeather]

It's also in the CotW mod in Kingmaker. A Fire Spirit Hex, if I recall.

[j_duthie]

I don't think pact wizards get hexes?

[Frostfeather]

Oh hell it's Spirit Whisperer, isn't it? Sorry, I thought it was called Spirit Pact or something like that offhand... I play a *lot* of games. The Spirit Whisperer Wizard gets Hexes from a Shaman Spirit and I usually go with Flame Curse.

I'd personally go with Sage Sorcerer then. The Blood Feats (Havoc, Intensity, etc) and Spell Perfection and such make them particularly good in CotW.

[j_duthie]

No worries, thanks for the suggestion.

[ptirodaktill]

I played a crossblood sorcerer in CotW and i can assure you, flame hex is overkill, enemies just don`t have enough HP to warrant it. Also if you play with "optional dmg dice increase" turn it off =)
Sage sorcerer is a trap. It look like its good and it get good, but so late in the game it won`t matter. Fey blood enchanter can pump 20DC for Sleep at lvl 1 if you start as thiefling. Normal wizard diviner can support your party right from the start and getting key spells 1 lvl earlyer is quite nice in kingmaker. And if hexes are your thing why not hex channeler? )

[j_duthie]

Metamagic adept on the sage sorc comes at level 5 I think? And let's you cast metamagic spells without an increase in casting time, which seems huge to me, I honestly don't know how it could be described as a late game trap. Diviner is obviously a strong contender for best wizard, but my understanding is that at least some spontaneous casting beats the versatility of a wizard in a crpg setting where the usefulness of a large number of spells is doubtful.

[Frostfeather]

From what I've seen, Diviner is maybe preferred more in Wrath, since the Initiative can make or break a fight more easily there (with the power creep from mythic abilities and mythic enemies).

Anyway, like you said, I don't tend to find the versatility of a Wizard to be as useful as a Sorcerer in either game. I suppose some of that will come down to your group composition and group needs and all though.

Oh also - if you're playing in turn based, the Sage Sorcerer's Metamagic Adept won't be quite as useful vs real time.

[j_duthie]

As a bg1 and 2 veteran, and ToEE being my favorite dnd game so far, I'm absolutely a turn based guy, and it seems like a pretty big deal to be able to move and cast metamagic in the same turn.

Edit: this is really what I'm asking: does quick study plus spontaneous casting of patron spells AND one spell level earlier make up for sage sorc's better skills and better spontaneous casting?

[ptirodaktill]

There is a misconseption that Sorc has better casts and more spells. If you think about it - its not. You won`t use any metamagic for very long time , cause lvl 2 spell slots gets saved for stat boosters or stone call or ray . lvl 3 spells are saved for stinking cloud/haste/fireball lvl 4 for greater invisibility and only 5 level slots are somewhat flexible. I still think baleful polymorf is much better that ppl give it credit, considering how it work on almost anything and with perstitent metarods its super reliable in CotW. To the point when i had a magambyan run when i turned every NPC intro good boys/girls and i really missed mass version of it in late game.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3286720698
Also you start with 4 slots as specialist wizard and Diviner can skip hare for spell recharger, so you are even with sorc right from the start. And you`re actualy ahead of sorc in number of effective spells, since you gain 3 lvl 2 spells at lvl 3 while sorc is forced to use lvl 1 spells for another level. Its even worse for x-blood and devastating if you want AT for some weird reason.
Don`t forget special wizard feats in Cotw.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by j_duthie:

Edit: this is really what I'm asking: does quick study plus spontaneous casting of patron spells AND one spell level earlier make up for sage sorc's better skills and better spontaneous casting?

That's difficult to answer objectively. They're both extremely good, so in these cases I tend to make the choice based on what I'd rather the character's roleplay to be like.

If you want to try and be more objective, then I think it comes down to your group composition and group needs. I can see the Wizard possibly being... slightly better, depending... but it's really close in my mind.