Bard Spells lvl. 2 - Cacophonous Call? Enchantments?

[Orion Pax]

More noob questions. 2nd play through.

What level 2 Bard spells do people like taking for Linzi?

I see a lot of builds highlighting Cacophonous Call, but isn’t that a bit redundant with Hideous Laughter already from level 1? I know they’re a bit different, but with all the decent buff spells, seem like diversifying makes more sense, no?

[asame_akio]

It really depends on how you’re building her. If you want to make her a dedicated controller, cacophonous call is a big upgrade from hideous laughter—it works on more creatures (hideous laughter only works on humanoids), it inflicts a more debilitating effect (nauseated creatures can’t do anything but take a move action, and can’t even cast quickened spells), and it only allows a single save (hideous laughter allows another save to end the effect every round)—not to mention the higher DC that comes with it being a higher level spell. If control is only a secondary or tertiary concern for your Linzi build and you already have hideous laughter, you can probably skip cacophonous call.

[Frostfeather]

Cacophonous Call is good, for reasons mentioned. But I find that I don't really use it very often because many enemies you'd want to use it on are immune or have high saves, and most enemies you can use it on are too weak or numerous to justify it.

Personally, I like Sound Burst more, for a few reasons. It usually gives you multiple chances for control. It remains relevant against Fey and arcane casters throughout the game because they tend to have low Fort. Also you can Sneak Attack stunned enemies (obviously more useful in turn based, and potentially more useful with ranged sneak attackers). And your entire group can make attacks more easily against stunned enemies (again obviously more useful in turn based).

Plus, you can go in the direction of being a sonic-based caster if you want your character to have some kind of identity in terms of what they do in combat. This also gives you a damage type that almost nothing is resistant or immune to.

Alternatively, Glitterdust is another good pick for similar reasons, it's just more useful against all the low Will animals and magical beasts and trolls in the first couple acts.

[Orion Pax]

Originally posted by asame_akio:

it works on more creatures (hideous laughter only works on humanoids)

Ah how did I miss that... Think I assumed since it's quasi verbal that it must be language-based and thus restricted to humanoids w/ language.

Originally posted by night4:

Cacophonous Call is good, for reasons mentioned. But I find that I don't really use it very often because many enemies you'd want to use it on are immune or have high saves, and most enemies you can use it on are too weak or numerous to justify it.

Personally, I like Sound Burst more, for a few reasons. It usually gives you multiple chances for control. It remains relevant against Fey and arcane casters throughout the game because they tend to have low Fort. Also you can Sneak Attack stunned enemies (obviously more useful in turn based, and potentially more useful with ranged sneak attackers). And your entire group can make attacks more easily against stunned enemies (again obviously more useful in turn based).

Plus, you can go in the direction of being a sonic-based caster if you want your character to have some kind of identity in terms of what they do in combat. This also gives you a damage type that almost nothing is resistant or immune to.

Alternatively, Glitterdust is another good pick for similar reasons, it's just more useful against all the low Will animals and magical beasts and trolls in the first couple acts.

Hmmm, yes still trying to keep track of who is resistant to what early on 2nd playthrough here - would definitely affect my decision. I've found utility for all the spills you mention certainly. My current Linzi build has a Fey Sorcerer splash for +2 DC on mind spells like Hideous Laughter, so maybe that points me toward Cacophonous next?

[Immortal Reaver]

Heroism, Glitterdust and Cacophonous Call. In this order.But also depends if I have another person who can cast Glitterdust.

Heroism - bard can take it earlier than others and it is best early game buff. +2 bonus and it is 10min/lvl so it last for whole dungeon. No item can replace it.

Glitterdust is great for all kind of Wisps, Managing to blind them is their death sentence, since it refuces their AC to cca 10-15, even if they save they cannot go invisible. It also has 1 dialoge use.

C.Call as explained.

[asame_akio]

I generally agree heroism is a must at early levels, but with a full 50-charge wand of it dropping in the early floors of Tenebrous Depths and good hope pretty quickly replacing it once bards get third level spells and lesser extend rods, I really wish Owlcat had implemented spontaneous casters getting to replace lower level spells known with new options as they level up. It goes from must have to irrelevant in like 4 levels.

[Immortal Reaver]

Originally posted by asame_akio:

I generally agree heroism is a must at early levels, but with a full 50-charge wand of it dropping in the early floors of Tenebrous Depths and good hope pretty quickly replacing it once bards get third level spells and lesser extend rods, I really wish Owlcat had implemented spontaneous casters getting to replace lower level spells known with new options as they level up. It goes from must have to irrelevant in like 4 levels.

Depends if you have the DLC. I honestly I always forget about the consumables.
And devs decided spell selection is too small to have replacing. Something like you could have always best spells like Wizard, and at same time have more slots.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by asame_akio:

I really wish Owlcat had implemented spontaneous casters getting to replace lower level spells known with new options as they level up. It goes from must have to irrelevant in like 4 levels.

This is another good reason to have Bag of Tricks - you can do this yourself if you'd like.

[Orion Pax]

Circling back to bard spells: Their 3rd spell levels.

After taking Haste & Good Hope - which I use regularly for big battles - I'm now trying to choose 2 of these 4 for this level and the next, after which I'll have to wait a bit:

Buffs:
1. Delay Poison Communal (Economical since 1 cast gets you a ways. No need for Tristian)
2. Featherstep Mass (Also economical. Good pairing with Grease, but too niche?)

3. Confusion (Adds a new enchantment, using my enchantment bonuses, but since I've got Hideous and Cacophonous, would a buff be better?)
4. Overwhelming Grief (Again, goes with enchantment focus, fewer immune to this?)

Thoughts?

[Immortal Reaver]

Originally posted by pauldrake99:

2. Featherstep Mass (Also economical. Good pairing with Grease, but too niche?)

Since I saw a lot of people not really reading what spells does and complaining on forum later about spell "not working", I am going to highlight the important thing.
"subject ignores the adverse movement effects of difficult terrain".
Only thing it will do is ignore the movement speed penality for walking on difficult terrain.

Freedom of Movement is only thing that will give you immunity to slipping on grease.

[Orion Pax]

Oh thanks - definitely saw people saying it counteracted Grease, but I never used Featherstep on my 1st playthrough.

[asame_akio]

Confusion is a great debuff (though like most mind-affecting spells, has a long list of immune enemies) that targets groups (it’s probably your first AOE mind-affecting spell at this point) and has essentially a 75% chance of robbing affected enemies of their effective actions for a round—50% if they’re already engaged with your party—every round for your level in rounds.

Overwhelming grief is another single target debuff that’s essentially a sidegrade to cacophonous call—while it robs affected enemies of all actions, where cacophonous call simply robs them of standard actions, it also allows a new save each round, which cacophonous call does not.

Mass featherstep is good if you’re frequently utilizing spells that create difficult terrain (as well as for dealing with naturally occurring difficult terrain), but some of those are difficult to use in this game due to the changes in spell ranges Owlcat imposed. Overall I’d say it’s relatively niche, but a good option if you as a player fall into that niche.

Communal delay poison is a great option if you have a caster regularly using stinking cloud, and even if you don’t, it’s a nice backup to have if you find a poison-heavy dungeon and don’t have a cleric/druid with the spell prepared already.

So again, it depends primarily on your playstyle, but I would recommend them in this order for an offensive-oriented bard who already has cacophonous call:

Confusion
Communal delay poison
Mass featherstep
Overwheming grief

And in this order for a more support-oriented bard:

Communal delay poison
Mass featherstep
Confusion
Overwhelming grief

[jsaving]

Agree with @asame and would add that before selecting any spells at all, you want to decide what type of bard you're trying to create. Ordinarily you'd go with either a max-charisma offensive caster bard or else a mediocre-charisma tank bard build that heavily splashes EK. Either option can be effective but the one you choose would tell you which spells to take.

For an offensive caster bard, spells like grease, glitterdust, cacophonous call and confusion would be taken early and cast often because they're so helpful in reducing incoming DPS. Whereas for a tank bard, you not only wouldn't choose those spells first but likely wouldn't take them at all, focusing instead on spells like mirror, sense vitals, and displacement that raise your personal DPS/survivability.

No matter which path you choose, you'd be just fine handling the secondary role of buffer because buffs don't require particular stat/feat choices to be effective. So spells like remove fear, heroism and haste would be taken regardless of role and used when needed.

Best wishes and good luck making your way through the game!

[Orion Pax]

Good stuff, thanks. Yeah, enchantment focus + buffs. Because I still only have 3 uses of level 3 spells (2 already going to Good Hope & Haste), I am inclined towards Delay Poison this time since one cast gets you for a while, and then an Enchantment next.

Originally posted by asame_akio:

Confusion is a great debuff (though like most mind-affecting spells, has a long list of immune enemies) that targets groups (it’s probably your first AOE mind-affecting spell at this point) and has essentially a 75% chance of robbing affected enemies of their effective actions for a round—50% if they’re already engaged with your party—every round for your level in rounds.

Overwhelming grief is another single target debuff that’s essentially a sidegrade to cacophonous call—while it robs affected enemies of all actions, where cacophonous call simply robs them of standard actions, it also allows a new save each round, which cacophonous call does not.

Very helpful - I was leaning towards Confusion as well for my next enchantment.

Originally posted by jsaving:

For an offensive caster bard, spells like grease, glitterdust, cacophonous call and confusion would be taken early and cast often because they're so helpful in reducing incoming DPS. Whereas for a tank bard, you not only wouldn't choose those spells first but likely wouldn't take them at all, focusing instead on spells like mirror, sense vitals, and displacement that raise your personal DPS/survivability.

No matter which path you choose, you'd be just fine handling the secondary role of buffer because buffs don't require particular stat/feat choices to be effective. So spells like remove fear, heroism and haste would be taken regardless of role and used when needed.

Best wishes and good luck making your way through the game!

Thanks, yeah, I've been able to keep a decent mix. One move was to splash 1 level of Fey Sorcerer at 3, for the boost to Enchantment, but it also allowed me to take Mage Armor & Grease in a separate spell bag. Plus the cantrips like Acid Splash were helpful with the Trolls.