No armor has better AC than armor?

[Piggy]

Just thinking since my no armor wearers seem to get some dang high AC compared to my tanks without even being spec'd into it.

Just makes me think sometimes like why do I even get armor.

[InEffect]

You casting on armor makes that enchantment local. It doesn't get transefered to bracers or mage armor. It gets added to the armor AC, which is 0 in case of robes, making them a 5AC armor. Only the highest armor piece will count because armor doesn't stack with itself, so said 5AC robe user will not benefit from mage armor, and with +8 bracers he will not benefit from robe AC. And +8 on the bracers means it adds 8AC to 0AC bracers, making them an 8AC item.

[zynexis]

Originally posted by InEffect:

You casting on armor makes that enchantment local. It doesn't get transefered to bracers or mage armor. It gets added to the armor AC, which is 0 in case of robes, making them a 5AC armor. Only the highest armor piece will count because armor doesn't stack with itself.

yes, it's local it's cast on your robes (vestment) or your shield

but it does not increase it's armor..it adds an 'Enhancement' bonus, not Armor bonus (these are 2 different things, even if they both add to total ac)

this means if the body armor/robe has any enhancement on it, like +1, it does not stack with that +1 . if magical vestment is higher than +1 it replaces the enhancement from the armor since it's bonus is higher.

I showed in the table that robe have 0 armor, but it can still be magical and have ac bonus. Magical vestment is just like that magical bonus

[InEffect]

enchantment on armor is added to that armor AC directly, before any other calculations. You can't add it to anything else but that exact piece of armor. It's not you who gets enchanted. It's that piece of armor that gets enchanted to be more durable. And as I literally quoted the core reference before, you can't stack multiple armor items. So robes, enchanted +5 with bracers +8 will net you a total of 8AC.

There's another line from core reference:
Other Modifiers: Many other factors modify your AC.
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides

IT and not anything else. Not to total AC, not to whatever other asinine things you hope it adds to. Read the rules as written, instead of imagining things.

[zynexis]

Originally posted by InEffect:

We do not need dex to be better than armor. If we have a monk level and 10 in both dex and monk stat we land at the stat of 22 with gear and elixir. that means +12AC from stats, on top of 5 dodge AC robes, bracers and vestments. Plate has no chance to compete even in that case, leave alone when we actually have at least 14 in said stats.

not sure i follow the first part, if we have 10 dex and 10 wis, (+0 +0 modifiers) .. you mean we get up to 22 in dex and wis with gear + mutagen? that is +12 ac..not sure why stat goes so high, +6 dex from belt, +4 from mutagen? then you also need a +6 wisdom headband but you can't get +4 wis from mutagen/cognigen cause you have already used the to increase dex (and got +4 dex -2wis or something)..or you mean some other elixir?

I assume when you say AC robe, you mean a robe with a +5 dodge bonus on it? dodge stacks with everything, so in that case the problem is not the system, but the itemization is out of whack, cause you don't get plate armor with +5 dodge on it. And +8 ac bracers also seems pretty nuts for an item, it's like half-plate.

dodge ac should stack with +5 vestment and + 8 armor bonus from bracers, cause none of those are the same type:

Robe: 0 armor +5 dodge +5 enhancement (from magical vestment) <- i think this is wrong
Bracers: +8 armor

unless the +5 dodge is some special form of 'enhancement' bonus that 'uses up' the slot for +5 enhancement, similar to the paladins/magi sword enhancements, where they can add +5, or expend -2 of that enhancement and add 'Holy or Frost' instead. In that case vestment shouldn't stack with the +5 dodge, but i'm not sure what kind of enchantment it is on that robe.

In general, items can only have 5 'levels' of enchantment on it in D&D.

and yes, mage armor does not stack with bracer of armor ac

Full-plate +5 = 15 ac (no vestment stacking)
vs
Bracer +8 armor, + 5 magical vestment (on robe) = 13 ac
.. if then +5 dodge on the robe, yes that is higher..altho it's still temporary spell ac, but imo it should not stack with vestment, no single item should have +5 dodge ac + 5 enhancement ac

[InEffect]

Originally posted by zynexis:

not sure i follow the first part, if we have 10 dex and 10 wis, (+0 +0 modifiers) .. you mean we get up to 22 in dex and wis with gear + mutagen? that is +12 ac..not sure why stat goes so high, +6 dex from belt, +4 from mutagen? then you also need a +6 wisdom headband but you can't get +4 wis from mutagen/cognigen cause you have already used the to increase dex (and got +4 dex -2wis or something)..or you mean some other elixir?

+8belt+2 bokken elixir+2RoC=+12. To a total of 22/+6. And sicne we as monks have 2 stats to AC it's a total of +12AC just from stats alone and that's assuming we start from a measly 10.

Originally posted by zynexis:

I assume when you say AC robe, you mean a robe with a +5 dodge bonus on it? dodge stacks with everything, so in that case the problem is not the system, but the itemization is out of whack, cause you don't get plate armor with +5 dodge on it. And +8 ac bracers also seems pretty nuts for an item, it's like half-plate.

Protectors robe, +5 dodge ac. Having dodge AC on items is explicitly prohibited by pathfinder rules. And yes, the itemization in PK is stupid. It's like that first time DM guy who tries to woo his players with progressively crazier items. You would never ever see anything even approximating what you find in PK from any DM ever. No +8bracers, no +8 to every stat items, no 15-20/x3 weapons.

As to how monk robed AC should look like if we play by pf rules it'd be 8AC bracers+dex+wis/cha as vestments can't stack with bracers and dodge AC can't be on items. Then we obviously can add shield spell and whatnot, but core calculation would be 8+dex+wis/cha vs 14+3 for +5 mithral plate. Which is a whole lot closer and that's why the rules are as they are. And that's assuming top end gear you'd never see. More realistic would be mage armor potion/spell on the monk vs +3 mithral plate with +4 spells/items it'd be somewhere around +8AC from stats for a monk to a total of +12AC with mage armor while average plate user would have 12+3AC, making armor better(if you've found mithral plate, which would be quite a quest in itself), but armor doesn't get stances monk does and whatnot, so it's about equal.

[Parallaxe]

Hello.

@InEffect: Yes this is my only real gripe with this game. The amount and power of magic items is so absurd that it makes many classes weaker in comparison by devaluating their unique abilities.

I fear we will see the same (or worse?) in the next campaign.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Parallaxe:

Hello.

@InEffect: Yes this is my only real gripe with this game. The amount and power of magic items is so absurd that it makes many classes weaker in comparison by devaluating their unique abilities.

I fear we will see the same (or worse?) in the next campaign.

We shall see. They seem to iron out stuff finally. That could only mean they are working on fixing those for wotr and just transfering changes to PK while at it, since the engine is the same, for which big propos to them. Better late than never and they didn't go 'GG, go next' like some do. Even if itemization won't improve drastically we at least are in for a more faithful rule implementation for both games, it seems. But I actually think it will. Varn pacing was already a lot better than base game in terms of items, with a few blemishes like dying wisdom and lion's claw, but it was a drastic improvement.

[zynexis]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Protectors robe, +5 dodge ac. Having dodge AC on items is explicitly prohibited by pathfinder rules.

I can understand why, it would be better then everything else, since dodge is stacking.

I'm still curious to your opinion on the bracer bonus tho, since you say they should not stack with enhancements..i can understand if it said that the ac bonus were an enhancement bonus, but it just says it's an armor bonus (like a piece of armor, it even says)

I'm not trying to imagine asinine things to add to ac, the stacking rules are simple and those are the most clear.

I would agree that IF bracers of armor was called like Bracers of Protection +5, they wouldn't stack with magical enhancements.

If it was up to me, i'd probably not let them go beyond +5 armor, it's like the only item that has +8 anything - besides normal armor, which is the only reason why it seems different from regular enhancement/magical items.

That is what makes me treat them like regular armor items, even tho they somehow are clearly magical? It seems to me the rules wants to treat bracers like regular armor, replacement for body armor (hence non stacking)

If bracers themselves were regular +3 armor items, with a +5 enhancement on top it would make more sense. They could also have been deflection items instead, but..

Originally posted by InEffect:

enchantment on armor is added to that armor AC directly, before any other calculations.

I don't see anything official about adding enhancement bonuses to armor before anything else in relation to why they should/should not be stacking, yes, enhancements increase ac, sure..just haven't found this exact rule i guess.

Originally posted by InEffect:

you can't stack multiple armor items. So robes, enchanted +5 with bracers +8 will net you a total of 8AC.

the example you give here is not exactly stacking armor bonus items.
Robe has 0 armor, bracers have 8 armor = 8 armor + 5 enhancement ac ..
but robes with +5 enhancement bonus, this is what you mean becomes 5 armor before any stacking, as a special exception to the stacking rules, if i understand you right?

In this case, bracers +8 should not stack with a non magical robe with magical vestment cast on it either..it's just the bracers of armor are not defined as enhancements :S

i dunno man, maybe i get what you are saying, it's like you say that the enchantment is an 'armor enhancement' and not simply an 'enhancement bonus'..meaning you can only increase armor from one source..sure, it's just pretty muddy

[InEffect]

Originally posted by zynexis:

the example you give here is not exactly stacking armor bonus items.
Robe has 0 armor, bracers have 8 armor = 8 armor + 5 enhancement ac ..
but robes with +5 enhancement bonus, this is what you mean becomes 5 armor before any stacking, as a special exception to the stacking rules, if i understand you right?

I think I see where the circus comes from. Bracers do not make your robe armor 8AC. They are a 100% separate armor item. Any enchantments they could have should be on the bracers. since all armor enchantments are local.

Originally posted by zynexis:

In this case, bracers +8 should not stack with a non magical robe with magical vestment cast on it either..it's just the bracers of armor are not defined as enhancements :S

In this case it doesn't matter how magical your robe is. If it provides less AC than bracers it might as well be mundane. Any other effects that can be on the item will count, though. So your robe of eyes will work perfectly fine with armor bracers.

Originally posted by zynexis:

i dunno man, maybe i get what you are saying, it's like you say that the enchantment is an 'armor enhancement' and not simply an 'enhancement bonus'..meaning you can only increase armor from one source..sure, it's just pretty muddy

Yes, that's exactly how it works. You can only have only one source of armor AC. Then you add allowed dex mod, deflection and all the other stuff to it. Everything that combines into your armor AC has to come from one item, be it temporary enchantment like vestments or permanent like magical gear. And the AC for said item is calculated before adding everything up.

So say we have a character that has a mundane robe, bracers +8, magical vestments +5 cast on both the shield and robes, mundane heavy shield, and a shield spell.
His armor ac will be 8, since robes with +5 enchantment become a 5AC suit of armor, which is less than 8AC bracers provide.
His shield AC will be 7 as 2AC for heavy shield+5 enchantment is more than 4AC shield spell provides.

[zynexis]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Ac I think I see where the circus comes from. Bracers do not make your robe armor 8AC. They are a 100% separate armor item. Any enchantments they could have should be on the bracers. since all armor enchantments are local.

yes, close, but wasn't exactly how i saw it..
i still saw that you enhance your robe with a vestment enchant, making it a 0 armor + 5 enhancement = 5 ac item

the bracers i saw as a straight 8 armor non enhancement item, so in total they would add 8 armor (from bracer) + 5 enhancement (on robe still)

in that case, you would still only have 1 armor source and 1 enhancement source per say

if the enhancement is transformed into raw armor and no longer just enhancement bonus type, then yes, i can see there is a rule about only 1 armor source, and vestment does nothing for it, and it makes sense

[InEffect]

You can't add robe enchantment to bracers. robe enchantment is local. It only can modify that robes AC. Even the vestment spell says you enchant a suit of armor, not yourself. If it said you cast it on yourself, then yes, there could be a reading that allows you to apply it to bracers. You can't have a +5 dagger in your pocket or off-hand and say you use that enchantment for your sword. All item enchantments are local, no exceptions.

[BigRockWall]

Enhancement is added to its type, armor, and shield. After which armor and shield AC values then put into AC equation.

The highest "armor" value (after accounting for enhancement) is chosen between bracers or chest slot.

Vestments is useful for gear optimization as you find interesting robes and bracers while undergeared. End game geared it should be worthless

[zynexis]

Originally posted by InEffect:

You can't add robe enchantment to bracers. robe enchantment is local. It only can modify that robes AC. Even the vestment spell says you enchant a suit of armor, not yourself. If it said you cast it on yourself, then yes, there could be a reading that allows you to apply it to bracers. You can't have a +5 dagger in your pocket or off-hand and say you use that enchantment for your sword. All item enchantments are local, no exceptions.

yes i know that, it wasn't a question about locality, i saw the two as completely separate items, only that the 'enhancement' part on the robe did not necessarily mean 'armor', and certainly not have any influence on the bracers in the way you describe - a magical enhancement bonus could mean other things like a magical source that makes you more difficult to hit, not just sturdiness.

but yes, on body armor/robes/outfit, +1 magical is understood as an 'armor'/sturdiness effect

[InEffect]

Enhancement is a type of bonus, Armor is what that bonus is added to. Armor and AC are not interchangeable terms. And sources of AC with the same name don't stack unless specified. So by enchanting a piece of gear, no matter temporarily or permanently you modify that specific item. If you enchant a sword the enchantment will not be tied to your main hand. It will be tied to that specific sword, same with armor enchants.

[zynexis]

yes all that is clear, armor is one thing, ac another, could be armor + dodge etc
i think we all agree, even if i don't think you quite see where i was coming from :)
the difference is the conversion into flat armor from enhancement type

and that when talking robe/bodyarmor, we always assume +1 means +1 armor, and on an amulet of nat armor, +1 means +1 'natural armor' and on rings of protection, it means +1 'deflection bonus' and so on.. enhancement is just increase of that main stat