Tanky Bard builds

[Orion Pax]

Curious to hear some tanky Bard builds. What do folks like?

[grognardgary]

Dex and spells rather than heavy armor would be best I think but you are going to spend some time prepping and figuring out what stacks and what doesn't

[FunkyMonkey]

Maybe a good light shield, medium armor and enough DEX to get full armor bonus, weapon finesse and find a good agile weapon. Rest into Charisma, you're a bard after all. Blur / Displacement and mirror images and you should be set.

[Immortal Reaver]

STR+CHA
1Bard/1Scaled Fist/DD4/ 10Eldritch Knight or continue Bard.

[mbradtke]

Originally posted by grognardgary:

Dex and spells rather than heavy armor would be best I think but you are going to spend some time prepping and figuring out what stacks and what doesn't

you can build linzi like this, her start set doesnt force her into ranged like octavia,
im doing this currently, one level aldori figher is very good, you dont loose AB this way and u get many weapon profiencies + dueling sword + weapon finesse as extra combat feat,
after that just build her as bard, maybe another warrior level for another feat but that should be it, no other dips needed and should be solid, for feats try to find a a balance to keep her as role as skill monkey and being tanky while she can also do some damage, sense vitals should be quite useful later

[Orion Pax]

Some good possibilities there, thanks all.

A lot seems to depend on what you're trying to do with a Bard:
Spells & Skills only: Bard1/Eldritch Knight makes a good melee w/ Buffs
Dirge or Inspire Greatness or Inspire Courage +3: Fill in with EK for more spells like Greater Heroism, Firghtful Aspect maybe

If I'm making it tanky, personally I'm less inclined to try to nurse its Enchantments since tankiness really serves a melee, and seems to make sense to fill out it's offensive output as well. Just me though.

How do folks like using a tanky Bard to Intimidate? Dazzle until Dirge? Or Dazzle and Inspire and later Frigthful Aspect?

[Frostfeather]

I sometimes have a Thundercaller (or Court Poet Skald) act as the group's "main tank" or "offtank", but this tends to be in groups with a lot of ranged/spell damage. So they don't really need much beyond Mirror Image, Blur (maybe Displacement in tougher fight), and some temporary hp to live (no armor usually). So I don't usually multiclass them... I want better Thunder Calls and Court Poet stuff asap so it's not worth it for me to delay them.

If I were playing in real time with more of a typical setup, I'd be tempted to dip Scaled Fist but personally probably wouldn't go EK as I think Bard stuff is too useful.

[grognardgary]

Originally posted by night4:

I sometimes have a Thundercaller (or Court Poet Skald) act as the group's "main tank" or "offtank", but this tends to be in groups with a lot of ranged/spell damage. So they don't really need much beyond Mirror Image, Blur (maybe Displacement in tougher fight), and some temporary hp to live (no armor usually). So I don't usually multiclass them... I want better Thunder Calls and Court Poet stuff asap so it's not worth it for me to delay them.

If I were playing in real time with more of a typical setup, I'd be tempted to dip Scaled Fist but personally probably wouldn't go EK as I think Bard stuff is too useful.

Some agreement here bard songs are just so damn useful at the upper end The bonuses and minuses to friend and foe are just too damn useful

[Orion Pax]

Originally posted by night4:

I sometimes have a Thundercaller (or Court Poet Skald) act as the group's "main tank" or "offtank", but this tends to be in groups with a lot of ranged/spell damage. So they don't really need much beyond Mirror Image, Blur (maybe Displacement in tougher fight), and some temporary hp to live (no armor usually). So I don't usually multiclass them... I want better Thunder Calls and Court Poet stuff asap so it's not worth it for me to delay them.

If I were playing in real time with more of a typical setup, I'd be tempted to dip Scaled Fist but personally probably wouldn't go EK as I think Bard stuff is too useful.

So what do you use for weapons, without multiclassing? A Monk dip gives you Monk weapons, like Flaming Nunchucks early, then Quarterstaffs, which are solid. Do you take an Exotic weapon proficiency?

I did try a Thundercaller previously and felt very so-so on it. My playstyle didn't jive so well. Lack of range & friendly fire with Thundercalls was problem often enough that I had a hard time making it work. Mainly I used it to double Bard - Thundercaller for Inspire, Linzi for Dirge - and lots of buffs and Lore Nature checks. Though that often felt somewhat redundant.

Not sure about Court Poet. Is that Wrath or Call of the Wild?

[Frostfeather]

In turn based, it could be a crossbow at first, then Arcane Protector later on. Or whatever, really... Thundercaller spends most turns Thunder Calling with the occasional spell, so the weapon isn't necessarily important. I literally did one with a Sling Staff plus Sense Vitals just for something different and it worked. Just 5 foot step to the side/back if you need to.

The bonus of a Thundercaller up front is that it helps with the range issue. And again, turn based is great - it lets your group take advantage of the stuns more efficiently and lets you cast the Thunder Calls carefully and safely.

Real time is a little more challenging, but you can still open combat with Thunder Call and enemies rush the Thundercaller which is what you want if they're tanky. If you have little melee in the group, you can place another Thunder Call just in front of yourself without any friendly fire once enemies have approached. Either way, you want your group to be killing things quickly so you're not tanking for extended periods of time if you can help it.

Court Poet is in Call of the Wild. And Wrath too I guess. I've used it as a tank there as well.

[Orion Pax]

Actually yeah that probably makes a lot sense for a tanky bard - don't even worry about weapon damage much and just focus on Thundercalling. I just wasn't very good at Thundercalling, even in turn-based, haha.

But so how would you make it tanky then? Did you go DEX? Did you take Crane feats without Monk levels?

[Mork]

I generally build mine like this ->

3 Tower Shield Specialist / 8-13 Bard / + x
Mitral Fullplate + towershield + a high crit chance weapon

Advantages / disadvantages:
- Reaching the require AC for the chapter is generally easier and simpler with heavy armor build.
- Tower shield specialist level 3 + mitral fullplate = max dex bonus 6
so 2nd and 3rd level of TSS should be taken around level 9
- A lot of feats
- At first, they need to remove their armor for buffing but later they can get a 5% spell failure with Arcane Armor Mastery + mitral fullplate
- Low DPS
- Low Touch AC
...


Or

Naked bard

1 Scaled Fist monk / 8-13 bard / +x

Advantages / disadvantages:
- Can be build either as DEX or STR. Both have advantages and disadvantages but overall, the STR is a better choice for the long run while DEX is the safest.
- Very High AC, touch AC and saves.
- They require more buffing on themself making them more vulnerable in certain situations but Its more a problem in WotR.
- Having a Alchemist in the group is recommended to give them Shield.
- This is the more a 'Unfair' build then the heavy armor bard.
- Lawful Good is recommended
...

[Mork]

Originally posted by Orion Pax:

Did you take Crane feats without Monk levels?

Yes

Mobility rank 3 + dodge + Crane Style

[asame_akio]

I actually made a pure bard offtank Linzi build. She obviously doesn’t start very tanky, and it takes a little while for her to get there, but I didn’t want to sacrifice bardic performance. With gear and the crane style feats, she gets reasonably tanky by around level 7 (when she can pick up Crane Wing), and you can further boost AC with combat expertise and cautious fighter down the road.

I also made a mercenary bard tank due to certain lategame happenings which starts off tankier earlier in the build, though sacrifices four levels of bard. She’s also a halfling to get cautious fighter and the size bonuses, and I went with 5/18/12/14/10/17 after racials.

DG1 -> SF1 -> DG3 -> Bard 16

Due to no inherent dex to damage and awful STR, she’s not going to be a damage dealer until she picks up an agile weapon, and even then she’s never gonna be DPR, so weapons that increase her tankiness in some way are preferred when available (that said, sense vitals, an extra flurry attack, and weapon finesse go a long way to making her halfway decent at poking things). Still, high AC, defensive spells, immunity to fear and disease, high saves, and divine grace boosting those saves even higher make her an effective tank against most forms of offense. 16 levels of Bardic performance and bard spells, while always leaving her behind a pure bard, makes her a great buffer. She can take a hit for her divine troth, as well as boost their AC via her AOOs. Between mercy (fatigued probably the best low level choice), soothing performance, and various bard spells that suppress or eliminate bebuffs, she’s an effective in-combat cleanser. By late game, she can pick up cure critical for emergency button healing if truly necessary, and since she’s a lightly equipped front-liner with expeditious retreat, she should be able to reach ailing party members easily enough.

[Frostfeather]

People added great stuff here. Just goes to show how many different approaches can work.

Only thing I can add is that I often tend to make my Thundercaller/Court Poet/whatever into more of a "DC Sonic caster". So that helps daze/stun enemies, which means fewer incoming attacks. Thundercaller eventually has multiple chances per round of stunning this way, whereas Court Poet gets the Charisma buff.

Dimension Door is a good emergency option if you want to avoid a heavier melee enemy while the group kills it.

Also I do tend to rely on the rest of the group somewhat for some buffs, debuffing enemies, maybe some temporary hp, etc. Spell Kenning helps the Court Poet fill gaps by casting spells from other lists.

It's kind of a combined group effort, lol. You get a feel for how much many resources are needed to match the difficulty of the current area... not everything is needed all the time.

[Orion Pax]

Yeah all interesting stuff. Cool to see Paladin get some mention here. I actually had to look up "DG." I threw 2 levels of Paladin on a Knife Master build and got roasted for that here, haha. But it had it's purpose. No regrets.

As for my own tanky bard, I guess I'm even pondering it cuz I usually take Valerie that direction to take over barding come late game. And I'm at that stage again. Trying to explore possibilities.

Mine usually goes roughly: TSS, 1 Vivi, 1 Monk, 3 more TSS for early game BAB & feats, then 12 Bard, 1 TSS (for Shield Attack bonus), and 2nd Vivi for extra feat.

Picks up most key Bard buffs & songs, leaving behind the enchantment focus to tank & hit stuff. Tower Shields are finally good, so she makes use of that, gets Onslaught and a good late-game Bastard Sword. Feats are actually mostly offensive surprisingly - she's plenty tanky. Usually Shatter if I have some intimidator (can be her) and Vital Strike line for hitting w/ damage on the move. Just enough BAB at level 20 for Greater Vital Strike.