Valerie Builds

[Orion Pax]

Curious to hear how people like to build Valerie these days? She can go several directions, which is fun.

For me, I find:
1) Don't care to focus on Tower Shield Specialist much until late game due to lack of good Tower Shields. So maybe level 2 or 4 early for feats? Save level 5 til late.
2) I have mostly tended to give mostly Bard levels so she can take over Inspire late.
3) Early game I find myself trying to scratch out anything that will help her tank better and hit at least some of the time. That has usually meant 1-2 levels of Vivi just for the shot in the arm. Is that weird?
4) In theory would like to rely on her to Dazzle, but early on, on harder difficulties, she can't seem to Dazzle much for me. Her stats have potential, but take some levels to round off (DEX, CON, CHA all odd numbers, STR even but low for melee).

Do folks go Stalwart much? She's obviously setup for that. I just found I rarely used Stalwart's main feature since I do want to be able to move w/ out penalty most battles.

Thoughts?

[ptirodaktill]

I`m not a fan of TSS cause it offer nothing of value. You don`t need early BAB cause you won`t hit anything before lvl 9 anyway. The faster you lvl bard, the more you get out of it when its matter. DD is here just to fix her abyssimal STR .

[valium]

TSS adds a lot for a hands off tank, maybe not for unfair, but hard and under it is more than good enough. Would I prefer aldorie defender or something? Sure, but it is what it is, and it is not bad.

[ptirodaktill]

Originally posted by valium:

TSS adds a lot for a hands off tank, maybe not for unfair, but hard and under it is more than good enough. Would I prefer aldorie defender or something? Sure, but it is what it is, and it is not bad.

LIke what? Burst barrier is a joke, you never need reflex save in kingmaker. Tower Shield Training is useless cause you won`t use tower shield past act 1 . Tower Shield Specialist same as above.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by valium:

Eldritch Knight can easily trivialize the game

It *can*, but it doesn't have to.

I'm saying it could be played in such a way that doesn't break the game, like for example focusing on defensive spells, Stunning Barrier, melee touch spells, etc. It's no more op vs having a high AC tank.

[valium]

Level 5 removed the tower shield penalty, which is extremely helpful. Level 9 adds your shield bonus to your touch AC, which is absolutely great. 13 makes you immune to being flanked, but other classes have that also so that is of lesser value. I say 9 TSS is a great breakpoint for Valerie and not wasted whatsoever.

Sub-optimal does not = bad. It is hard to go wrong with fighter, it is a solid class regardless of subclass, as long as you dont actively build it incorrectly.

[ptirodaktill]

Originally posted by valium:

Level 5 removed the tower shield penalty, which is extremely helpful. Level 9 adds your shield bonus to your touch AC, which is absolutely great. 13 makes you immune to being flanked, but other classes have that also so that is of lesser value. I say 9 TSS is a great breakpoint for Valerie and not wasted whatsoever.

lvl 5 is just 2AB when you don`t really need it. lvl 9 is utter garbage, the only way to boost your touch AC to reasonably value is to dip intro Scale first. Flank immune is just 2 AC , at lvl 13 AC is irrelevant .

[valium]

AC is never irrelevant. Just because the defensive spells are way too good does not make AC less relevant.

Maybe people want to keep Valerie thematically on-point, I prefer that, it is more fun that way. TSS + Stalwart Defender is an effective build.

[Orion Pax]

Yeah TSS is it something I would make a build around. But since Valerie starts with it, you kinda have to lean into it to continue feats & BAB for a bit. My MC & mercs builds take the Monk robes, so Val might as well use armor. Especially the nice mithril one at the end.

It’s a tradeoff. I can totally see earlier Bard. Outside of buffs though you don’t get much early since Inspire is redundant with Linzi.

[valium]

The buffs + dirge/DD prereq are the point though. It is a great build for unfair, but I prefer thematic builds, which are more than good enough for hard.

[Orion Pax]

Totally fair. If I used her whole game that’s probably what I’d do. But since I usually bench her once I get Jub & Ekun (I have mercs), I don’t really access anything after level 6. I need the spike to come early and then not again til late.

[valium]

I really like Valerie as a character, the notion of benching her has never entered my mind.

[talemore]

Valerie is as useful like any other magus

[Orion Pax]

Originally posted by valium:

I really like Valerie as a character, the notion of benching her has never entered my mind.

Hear that. I've just been on a streak where I want to craft multiple builds from scratch, so I'm doing 2 mercs. And I've tended to build tanky melees that hit better and are more interesting to me, so it's usually MC, 2 mercs, and then Ekun, Jubilost, and Linzi. If I went down to 1 merc, she'd be first back in for sure.

I really do like her: I like melees, I like tanky melees, she's Lawful so can get Crane feats w/ a Monk dip, lots of good Bastard Swords throughout the game, it's nice getting to give someone some of the cool armor you find, her stats eventually give you pretty good bonuses, etc. Not totally down with her personality though - aloof and yet rigid at times. But she's a good egg mostly.

[asame_akio]

Originally posted by valium:

Originally posted by night4:

You mean it's too strong? EK is so versatile that it doesn't necessarily end up op. And Val certainly isn't an ideal base for it either.

There are some classes and abilities I almost never use because they're too strong (Arcane Trickster, Deadly Earth, etc) but EK is fine to me as long as it's not min/maxed.

Eldritch Knight can easily trivialize the game, same with base kineticist, which is why I limit my use of it to the kinetic knight. I know Val isnt the best EK ever, but the entire prestige class turns me off.

I fail to see anything the Eldritch Knight PrC can do that the base spellcaster class involved in its creation couldn’t do at least a level earlier, or the base martial class couldn’t do better. Yes, unlike base spellcasting classes, it has full BAB progression, but if you’re casting spells, you aren’t swinging your sword; and yes, unlike most decent martials, it has almost full spellcasting progression, but if you’re swinging your sword, you aren’t casting a spell. It’s a solid choice if you need to fill both roles for some reason, but it doesn’t really do anything better than the base components (generally it does them worse due to lower BAB, delayed spell progression, insufficient feats, and a lack of class features), and action economy being what it is, it can usually only act as a spellcaster or a martial, not as both at the same time, so in full party, 9 times out of 10, having a well-built dedicated martial and a well-built dedicated spellcaster as separate characters beats having a well-built eldritch knight.

Spell critical is good, sure, but comes online late considering what you give up, and is hardly gamebreaking next to what sorcerers and wizards can do already.

[valium]

A free limitless quickened spell is insanely powerful on turn-based, gamebreaking in my opinion.