Spellcasters - I need convincing

[Orion Pax]

Curious to hear folks' takes on making fun & effective spellcasters. Appreciated all the input on the melee builds post. One comment I think said melee was a poor choice for a main character. Curious if more have that opinion.

My experience with casters thus far has been a bit muddled. Limited casting early, spell resistance & immunities later, are I guess the tradeoff for having big nukes at other times, but have factored into me steering away.

Intensified by other solid ranged attackers already in the group: Ekundayo, and especially Jubilost. Jub's bombs to me have been super effective far more reliably than spells. Especially with Force Bombs tripping enemies that would otherwise often resist debufs; Holy Bombs destroying Undead, etc.

I've seen a lot about how good casters become later. Like Octavia - who I've been able to make pretty decent by mid levels or so, but in part because she gets lots of Sneak Damage from Arcane Trixter. So that's 3 ranged - somewhat squishy - attackers. Plus Linzi usually who already does heavy Enchantments. I kind of don't want to replicate what other NPCs do, so melee has stuck out as a main need, and most consistently impactful.

TL:DR
What are thoughts on making a spellcasting main character that is fun & effective, and doesn't replicate what other party members do too much? (Difficulty: Challenging/Hard)

[Frostfeather]

You've already built your group in such a way that you don't need a caster MC, so you might just save that for another run.

But if you wanted one, don't let the downsides steer you away. You're limited on everything early on not just spell slots, and that gets easier every level. Spell Resistance isn't difficult to get around, and with 3+ casters in the group, you'd want to invest in Allied Spellcaster anyway (which stacks for every person who has it and applies to people who don't even have the Feat). Immunities are rare and you have options to deal with them. Finally, with Mirror Image and other defensive spells, your arcane casters should be very tanky against the occasional stray hit. So they make excellent flank guards to protect those without Mirror.



You do possibly have a slight gap in your group as far as large scale area damage and/or control goes, so that's something to build a MC caster for. If for no other reason than to make the end game more manageable.

The easiest option is Sylvan Sorcerer - they're widely recommended for a reason. The pet gives you another tanky body on the battlefield while you CC and/or blast enemies. In your existing group, it would probably be easiest to focus on spells like Chain Lightning and Stormbolts. Maybe control against enemies Linzi can't affect due to mind immunity.

If you want to min/max a high DC caster, evil Sage Sorcerer is a great option. This route could go into save-or-suck Necromancy spells that will absolutely annihilate groups of end game Fey with low Fortitude.

Or Deadly Earth/Cloud Kineticist fills that role extremely well, too, but these abilities are massively overpowered due to bugs and may make the game too easy for some people. There are other options, of course, but those are commonly recommended ones that can fit that particular role.

[Nismu]

My favorite is the sylvan sorceror foocusing on conjuration for summons and crowd control ( and buffs ).

Animal companion helps specially on early levels when spells are more limited but even then grease, web and entangle can greatly aid frontliners ( though in rtwp mode needs to be careful)

[talemore]

Arcane spellcasters are able to sprint faster than any NPC making them immune to almost everything in the game. There's no encounter they can't defeat because nothing can get in range.

Grease make them fall prone which allow the spellcaster to cast their spell.
Magic missile kills everything in their path even if Spell:Shield is the most common spell known by any wizard close to no enemies uses spell: Shield.

Then we got cleric, no cleric encounter has missile shield. Clerics who rely on their AC and shields use stunning barrier to trigger attack of opportunity. Since stun stop attacks only one attack is coming through the defense.

It's not that melee is bad.

If you look at comments you will keep on seeing people saying that they use long spear.

But there's noting in the game who support why you should use long spears.

Many mechanics won't work with long range weapons like bite attacks.

Short range is meant to be encountered with mobility checks. The issue is that mobility checks is based on dexterity.

Because 70% of all mechanics are
bond to Dexterity everything becomes based on dexterity.

Your shield bearer is Jeathal because she comes with cantrips and a shieldbearer with cantrips do not care if the opponent want to pull the tank forward. The cantrip tank is solid. It never moves from its position because moving forward would be giving up on its formation and defense.

Jeathal has has 16 strength and 14 which means she can two weapon a sword and shield or just rely on cantrip and shield.

Magic domain works as well for cleric but isn't as cheap. While the tanks in fron uses shield and cantrip we got the Amiri with reckless stance using bow.

Linzi is another shieldbearer except she uses DAZE instead of an ordinary cantrip. Early in the game Linzi dominate as she DAZE all opponents. Later on she uses dazling display with thug but she she can be used solely to DAZE all humanoids as she will continue to spam the spell-like ability.
DAZE is given to the arcane Rogue who is the wizard version of Bard.

Octavia is given +1 to ranged attacks to use her spell-like ability.
She's technically an arcane Rogue except more of a wizard and since there are many classes who give every advantage at level one she become better than an arcane Rogue.

The problematic with trying to make everything fit is that the characters do not match their roles. Amiri is better with a bow since she get reckless stance.

Jeathal better with sword and board since she got strength and dexterity close to another. or cantrip and shield.

Linzi being a bard gains shield ability allowing her to tank archers and daze while raising her fist to the sky as a dazzling display.

Tristian build completely messed up as he has the wrong primary deity.

Valerie being a magus since she's the opposite of a paladin now, using arcane magic instead of divine able to use her bastard sword with both one or two hands.

[99Random]

So do you just copy and paste the same anti-fighter spell casters rule rant in every thread?
I guess if repetition makes bad advice valid you are on the right track.

[Mork]

DC casters get better the higher the difficulty and the harder the fight.

Buffs > Crowd controls > Damages

A evil sage sorcerer can easily reach 40+ INT with DC over 40.

Lawful Evil is one of the best alignment for the campaign making a Sage Sorcerer a very solid main character for difficulty hard / challenging.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2069734248

[Immortal Reaver]

For spell resistance. Some spells are not affected by spell resistance (and those work on wisps). Like Glitterdust, Grease, Snowball, Create Pit line of spells.

[ptirodaktill]

I`m on my unfair no save-load abuse run with DC Sage sorcer conjurer/enchanter . Human 16 dex/con 20 int, started with Grease and Sleep. Just finished 2nd act at lvl 7, leaving poor Harluka lauging on the floor for entire fight. I was surprised by how good Deep Slumber was, making a lot of fights intro a joke, too bad useless girl Amiri can`t oneshot a branded troll with coup de grace . (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqPfbxwf8XI

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Mork:

Buffs > Crowd controls > Damages

This will depend on your group and the situation. Since death is the ultimate form of CC and since it's eventually so easy to kill many enemies and bosses with damage even before they can act... you're often better off skipping the CC entirely and just killing them.

[ptirodaktill]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by Mork:

Buffs > Crowd controls > Damages

This will depend on your group and the situation. Since death is the ultimate form of CC and since it's eventually so easy to kill many enemies and bosses with damage even before they can act... you're often better off skipping the CC entirely and just killing them.

Yeah, CC is mostly early/midgame thingy . Once maximised/empowered hellfire ray is on the table with some sneak juice inside, its game over.

[talemore]

Originally posted by 99Random:

So do you just copy and paste the same anti-fighter spell casters rule rant in every thread?
I guess if repetition makes bad advice valid you are on the right track.

Originally posted by 99Random:

If you are relying on a 1 level Monk dip, you are not only doing it wrong, but you also do not understand the Pathfinder rule set (it can be burdensome). That is simply a min-max strategy that is not required in any way.

The rules are built around logical, but not always obvious, check and balances that discourage blind face tanking.

[Orion Pax]

Wow, awesome stuff. Thanks all.

Originally posted by night4:

death is the ultimate form of CC

I just love how Goth this sounds. 💀

Originally posted by Mork:

DC casters get better the higher the difficulty and the harder the fight.

Interesting. I can see how that would be. Do other ranged damage dealers not scale as well with higher difficulties (Jubilost, Ekundayo)?

Originally posted by night4:

Immunities are rare and you have options to deal with them... it would probably be easiest to focus on spells like Chain Lightning and Stormbolts.

Guess that is true enough. Think I'm just miffed at Mandoraga Swarms being both so tough and immune to those spells when I tried with Octavia. I'm sure there is a better strategy with those, but given how resistant they are to physical attacks, it'd be nice to at least be able to make a real dent with spells, and again not just with Jubilost's bomb's. Which also are huge for tripping Golems which are also immune to just about everything but seem to be tripped real easily.

Originally posted by Nismu:

My favorite is the sylvan sorceror foocusing on conjuration for summons and crowd control ( and buffs ).
Animal companion helps specially on early levels when spells are more limited but even then grease, web and entangle can greatly aid frontliners ( though in rtwp mode needs to be careful)

Originally posted by night4:

The easiest option is Sylvan Sorcerer - they're widely recommended for a reason. The pet gives you another tanky body on the battlefield while you CC and/or blast enemies. In your existing group, Maybe control against enemies Linzi can't affect due to mind immunity.

Yeah Sylvan definitely has stood out as such a strong option for those reasons. I definitely need to try more non-enchantment control spells, and Sylvan would give that from the get, plus pet for melee, and damage spells throughout/late. There really are a huge swath of enemies that are immune to mind spells.

Sage Sorcerer also looks pretty cool as well.

[ptirodaktill]

Interesting. I can see how that would be. Do other ranged damage dealers not scale as well with higher difficulties (Jubilost, Ekundayo)?

Jubilost kick ass on any difficulty. =) Main Grenadier is even better, probably the easyest start in the game with insane power once you get rapid shot+fast bombs. Ekun not so much, but at least he is usable. Still a pain to cast turn/round spells with 4 levels penalty.
I would advise against pets in this game, as precasting is super boring even without them.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Orion Pax:

Interesting. I can see how that would be. Do other ranged damage dealers not scale as well with higher difficulties (Jubilost, Ekundayo)?

I think they scale very well because the higher the difficulty, the more important it is to avoid taking damage. Melee have limited pounce options in Kingmaker, but ranged can generally start full attacking immediately, so that helps kill things faster which reduces incoming damage.

They also synergize well with casters. Like your caster softens up the enemy group with a damage spell and the ranged damage dealer easily picks off what's left. I usually like using a Slayer for a ranged attacker because they can Sneak Attack flat footed enemies with high BAB to quickly take out the biggest threat or often end the fight the first round.

Originally posted by Orion Pax:

Think I'm just miffed at Mandoraga Swarms being both so tough and immune to those spells when I tried with Octavia. I'm sure there is a better strategy with those, but given how resistant they are to physical attacks, it'd be nice to at least be able to make a real dent with spells, and again not just with Jubilost's bomb's. Which also are huge for tripping Golems which are also immune to just about everything but seem to be tripped real easily.

I don't recall Mandragora Swarms being immune to lightning, but I usually use fire spells on them anyway because fire spells are easier to use at a distance. Mandragora Swarms are Vulnerable (+50% damage taken) to either area damage and/or fire damage (I forget exactly, but I know area fire spells are +50% damage), so if you launch enough Fireballs, Siroccos, etc with Metamagic and/or Surprise Spells, they should be easy enough. Slow them more with Acid Fog, Entangle, Web etc if needed so they don't reach you.

An option for magic immune enemies is Snowball, which is great for Octavia or any caster with Sense Vitals for Sneak Attack. Snowball ignores enemy Spell Resistance, so you can use it on anything that's not immune to cold.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by ptirodaktill:

Yeah, CC is mostly early/midgame thingy . Once maximised/empowered hellfire ray is on the table with some sneak juice inside, its game over.

True. But I find damage spells to be useful the whole game and potential fight enders as early as level 5. Like a lesser Empower Rod Spell Specialization Fireball on the Boggard Champion or Stag Lord fights.

I think a good rule of thumb for how often you can expect damage spells to be a great option would be to multiply 5% by your caster's level. Meaning at level 3, they'll only feel like some form of damage spell is worth using about 15% of the time whereas at level 13 it's more like 65% of the time. So early on, they'll want some buff/CC options and/or a plan for what to do between spells.

[Orion Pax]

Originally posted by night4:

I think they scale very well because the higher the difficulty, the more important it is to avoid taking damage. Melee have limited pounce options in Kingmaker, but ranged can generally start full attacking immediately, so that helps kill things faster which reduces incoming damage.

They also synergize well with casters. Like your caster softens up the enemy group with a damage spell and the ranged damage dealer easily picks off what's left. I usually like using a Slayer for a ranged attacker because they can Sneak Attack flat footed enemies with high BAB to quickly take out the biggest threat or often end the fight the first round.

Hah - that is literally my current build. And I love it because it does exactly what you're saying. So as a baseline when I compare it to riskier casters, it sets a high bar. Very precise, good range, no spell resistance (or extra failure chance, as in basement of final dungeon).

Originally posted by night4:

I don't recall Mandragora Swarms being immune to lightning, but I usually use fire spells on them anyway because fire spells are easier to use at a distance. Mandragora Swarms are Vulnerable (+50% damage taken) to either area damage and/or fire damage (I forget exactly, but I know area fire spells are +50% damage), so if you launch enough Fireballs, Siroccos, etc with Metamagic and/or Surprise Spells, they should be easy enough. Slow them more with Acid Fog, Entangle, Web etc if needed so they don't reach you.

Yeah. I just happened to have Octavia's best spell slots loaded with Chain Lightening, Stormbolts, and Disintigrate (heightened). But only had Fireballs heightened to level 5, which did surprisingly minimal damage. Good tips tho. Working in more slowdown control spells is something I need to work on.

Originally posted by night4:

An option for magic immune enemies is Snowball, which is great for Octavia or any caster with Sense Vitals for Sneak Attack. Snowball ignores enemy Spell Resistance, so you can use it on anything that's not immune to cold.

Huh. Very cool. Will try. Thx.