To Thug or Not to Thug

[Gresh]

I have a level 11 lawful evil, strength based, two-handed fighter for my main character, focused on hitting hard along with persuasion feats, trip, teamwork feats, dreadful carnage, etc. Normal difficulty so build doesn't matter a whole lot beyond fun.

I'm thinking about multi-classing for at least a few levels for some sneak attack damage and/or something other than just hitting things with a big hunk of metal.

1. Thug would fit thematically with my behavior in the campaign. I've heard that the constant fear effects on enemies gets annoying really quickly. Otherwise I can just splash some basic rogue in. What are your thoughts on that?

2. Vivisectionist is generally a good call too, though I don't really need the extra access to buffs beyond mutagens and my intelligence stat is low middling. What would be the main benefit here over rogue? What additional discoveries would be interesting to go for?

3. I'm ok with going 11F / 9 whatever, 16F / 4 whatever, or mixing in other interesting combos, but focus is definitely more on offense than defense. What would be a good or interesting mixture of class levels? Is there a specific hard cut-off point for 2H fighter I should keep in mind?

Thanks.

[asame_akio]

1: Thug definitely isn’t a great choice for a DPS with dreadful carnage and high intimidate; since weapon and spell ranges are so limited in this implementation of the ruleset, it can be difficult to deal with fleeing enemies, and it breaks up their formation, which can in turn scatter your own, leaving you vulnerable when the fear effect wears off. Thug can theoretically work on a high Intimidate character who only has Dazzling Display, as a sort of emergency button, especially if your party is sufficiently good at range to pick off anything that flees behind your front line; but dreadful carnage on a thug in this game just leads to chaos.

2: Don’t underestimate having an extra source of buffs, even low level ones. It helps your party take on more fights between rests; and don’t forget even one level in a casting class also gives that character auto-success on scrolls and wands for any spell on the class’s spell list, which is nice for access to spells with a target of personal. I’ve given levels in Int-casting classes to both Valerie and Amiri, and while casting never became a significant part of their jobs (the levels were for other reasons), Int-boosting items and wands meant they were both more effective even when my main buffers were running low on steam. Don’t dip vivisectionist on a DPS build FOR the spells, but don’t discount them entirely, either.

3: Slayer is another very nice option for a DPS build—in a lot of ways, I’d recommend it over fighter (potential early and/or tax-free access to certain feats via ranger talents, sneak attack, better saves, access to rogue talents). I generally like it better than rogue, too, thanks to its significantly higher attack bonuses (full BAB vs the rogue’s 3/4, studied target); though that may not be an issue for your build if you’re going really heavy on fighter levels.

[Gresh]

Thank you for the input. I'll re-consider my outlook on access to low level buffs. Also, I didn't know about the auto-success on scrolls and wands.

Slayers are probably my favorite Pathfinder class actually. I was kind of leaning into the 2H fighter build for this run for something different. Hard to resist the lure of a Slayer respec though.

[jsaving]

If you have no other rogue in your party, 4 levels for debilitation isn't a bad dip to make. On a fighter character you might consider eldritch scoundrel for native access to mirror image, rather than thug which as @asame_akio says is a strong choice in theory but a tedious one in practice.

[Orion Pax]

Thug is also a pass for me. Yes some power is there, but it seems like such a headache to chase all those fools down afterwards. Or at least feels like it lessens control and adds anxiety, to me at least. Just not the gameplay I'm looking for anyway.

Originally posted by asame_akio:

Slayer is another very nice option for a DPS build—in a lot of ways, I’d recommend it over fighter (potential early and/or tax-free access to certain feats via ranger talents, sneak attack, better saves, access to rogue talents). I generally like it better than rogue, too, thanks to its significantly higher attack bonuses (full BAB vs the rogue’s 3/4, studied target); though that may not be an issue for your build if you’re going really heavy on fighter levels.

^All of this indeed makes it "hard to resist the lure of a Slayer," as Dulce put it. As I draw up strong but low-maintenance melee builds, they keep ending up with lots of Slayer levels, especially if I'm trying for Dreadful and dumping INT. Granted I'm newer am still exploring. I know melee sorcerers are a thing, and y'all's points about getting buff spells out of your dips is well taken.

[Gresh]

Yeah I ended up respeccing to Slayer 10, Vivisectionist 2 when I hit level 12. The advanced rogue talents and mutagen/discoveries are a little hard to pass up. Where before I was running out of feats I was particularly interested in, now I have too many good options to choose from. It's a nice problem to have. I was respeccing to use a particular weapon focus anyway... and Slayer is just too good.

Thank you for the input and suggestions everyone. If you have any other opinions, feel free to keep them coming.

I'm going for feral mutagen/feral wings for vivisectionist, but considered going for mummification instead. Are there any discoveries you all prefer?

[Orion Pax]

Originally posted by Dulce:

The advanced rogue talents and mutagen/discoveries are a little hard to pass up. Where before I was running out of feats I was particularly interested in, now I have too many good options to choose from.

Exactly the problem I been trying to have. :)

Which advanced rogue talents do you like? Opportunist & Blinding Strike caught my eye. My problem right now is my draft builds are multiclassed so much it's hard to get to Slayer 12 before the very end game.

I am also all ears on Vivisectionist / discovery tips folks have.

[Merin]

I'm currently playing a Thug/Slayer build, and absolutely loving it. Very early the thug levels weren't great, but I went to 4 in Thug and then 10 levels of Slayer. There are times where fights are hilarious. With a longspear and numerous opportunity attacks as creatures flee, it's been a total blast.