Cleave feat line - how it all works?

[Orion Pax]

Hello. Noob question on the differences between each of the Cleave feats, as I've not used them much. Have read a bunch and tried some but could use help telling what from what.


1. Cleave: Standard action (w/ Cleave button) that hits a 2nd target if you hit one. Check.

2. Great Cleave: Like Cleave (w/ Cleave button) but you just continue to all enemies within reach.

3. Cleaving Finish: 2nd hit only when you kill an enemy, but is automatic whenever "you make a melee attack." No longer restricted to its own standard action.

4. Improved Cleaving Finish: Like Cleaving Finish but you continue to all enemies within reach.


So strategically then Cleave & Great Cleave have some synergy when paired with swift or move actions on the same turn, whereas Cleaving Finish & Improved Cleaving Finish are helpful to have on in all cases (for when you kill something). Do I have this right?

[Mork]

Cleaving finish is a passive.

Cleave and cleaving finish are very good feats in turn based mode all game long.

But great cleave and improve cleaving finish not so much. They are good in the early game since ennemies are easy to one shot but as the game progress, they become worst and worst and i don't recomend taking great cleave and imp. cleaving finish but great cleave can still be really good with the right reach build.

How to use it? Bellow BAB 6, its pretty much always better to do a cleave instead of a regular attack. After BAB 6, Cleave give a extra option and especially after doing a move action.

For example, if you use cleave after moving on a target with high HP, you could kill the target with low HP next to him and cleaving finish back to the first target. Killing the two.

[EolSunder]

i would say if you play the game turn based its fine, but having to actually click "cleave" all the time on regular play is too much, i would ignore cleave unless your doing turn based where your going to access it every round. Regular play with warriors usually its just buff and go in and slaughter. With warriors on normal play i just increase passive damage/defense so i just focus on my cleric/buffers during the battles and let the warriors do what they do.

[mbradtke]

it depends on the difficulty, even without turn based mode you can and often should micromanage everyone, about cleave... it is not bad.... for a feat... i woudnt take it on a full BAB toon tough, like Amiri, not like she would have the feats for it as barbarian anyways, reg is a very good one to take the cleave line, he has only medium BAB so that additional attacks comes handy and he doesnt loose much as well because of the slow progress on BAB, the later cleave feats are for warriors i guess, who have too much feats eventually, no way anyone else could spend so much feats on cleaving, nor would it be worth it

[Orion Pax]

Interesting. I had used Cleave line just a bit on a Freebooter in Varhold's lot just to see what it was like. Felt like I noticed it being helpful due to lower BAB early on, combining with his Freebooter's Bane/Bond move actions, and seeming to get jumped a bit more by enemies than in regular game.

Seems like Vital Strike line has similar issues? I hadn't used feats like that or Cleave much exactly because they seemed to compete with full round attacks with BAB of 6+. The monk build I used last got a ton of attacks which felt pretty fun.

So instead of Cleave or Vital Strike lines, what feats do folks like taking for a damage-dealing melee build (beyond Shatter Defenses / Dreadful Carnage)? Just trying to find some inspiration.

[Mork]

Originally posted by Orion Pax:

So instead of Cleave or Vital Strike lines, what feats do folks like taking for a damage-dealing melee build (beyond Shatter Defenses / Dreadful Carnage)? Just trying to find some inspiration.

Power attack -> cleave -> cleaving finish

It's very good with a enlarged two handed damage dealer in turn-based mode. Even better with a enlarged reach weapon user.

There is also a barbarian pounce charge which is insane in turn-based.

Leser beast totem -> beast totem -> greater beast totem

Pounce = When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack

[Orion Pax]

Originally posted by Mork:

Power attack -> cleave -> cleaving finish

It's very good with a enlarged two handed damage dealer in turn-based mode. Even better with a enlarged reach weapon user.

There is also a barbarian pounce charge which is insane in turn-based.

Leser beast totem -> beast totem -> greater beast totem

Pounce = When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack

Awesome. Yeah, can't get enough of Pounce in my Smilidon & Leopard. Especially when opening combat with a ranged attack - allows them to get a full attack in. Makes a barbarian build tempting.

[Tyrendian89]

even more fun with a Primalist Bloodrager in Wrath of the Righteous, because then you can even buff yourself (Mirror image etc.), but should work almost the same with a regular Barb in Kingmaker. Reach weapon very much recommended - charge at enemy somewhat farther back in a clump so you have all of them in range, and watch them melt. Add a sprinkle of Legendary Proportions for extra hilarity to taste.

[Orion Pax]

Oh and Cleaving Finish:

Does it's extra attack happen in addition to whatever extra attacks you get from full BAB attack? Or does it replace it?

Like using a regular full attack, if I have 6 BAB and kill an enemy with my 1st hit (triggering Cleaving Finish), would I get a 2nd hit from the BAB and also a 3rd hit from Cleaving Finish?

[Mork]

Cleaving finish is a free extra attack, 1 per round, after a killing blow to the next target in range. So you kinda need a enlarged character and/or a reach weapon to make thing easier.

[Orion Pax]

Very cool. And just to be sure, none of these extra Cleave hits count as an Attack of Opportunity? It doesn't say so in their descriptions: "and can make an additional attack." No mention - hope it's not implied?

[nshawmc]

Cleave is good if you only have one attack. But 3 attacks (vivesectionist or a leopard shapeshifter) with max STR is likely going to deal way more damage in comparison as an alternative melee class. Problems though are a shapeshifter cant be enlarged to hide behind summons (without an Occultist with alter size feature that affects animals). Cleave also has to be put on auto so can conflict with classes that use other auto features like the slayer or freebooter ranger. You also want to turn it off if only one target to not have -2 AC so cleave takes more micromanaging.

If you do cleave its best to have a reach weapon and be enlarged because the bigger range will have more enemies within range for cleave to actually work.

I usually use cleave with a 3/4 bab who isnt getting 2nd attack until 8th level who often is also doing other things with their standard action like dazzling display or a bard/skald song so like hunters/bard/skald/summoners/occultists. The 1 BAB barb/fighter/ranger is going to have second attack at 6th level and cleave becomes worse than the multiattack.

[Orion Pax]

Wow. Slight necro here to report what other may have already known:

Cleaving Finish appears to work on the end of a basic Cleave. Not just regular attacks. So a standard Cleave hits 2 enemies, and if one of them kills, then you get another extra hit with Cleaving Finish (so 3 total). Makes sense I guess but hadn't expected that. Cool.