Use Magic Device question

[Charlemagne]

I've been investing in this skill for my magic users, in the notion that having a high UMD will allow them to have less wand/scroll failures. However I wonder is this how it works? I mean, if a wizard or sorcerer already can use a wand or scroll, does he get any benefit of continuing to increase his UMD? Or does this skill simply allow you to use otherwise prohibited items, but gives no further benefit than that? I notice that UMD is not a recommended skill for wizards. What is the effect of increasing UMD levels?

[Drake]

UMD is for magic items that your class can't normally use. Like if you're a cleric, you can't use mirror image scrolls, because the spell isn't in the cleric spell repertoire.
WIth UMD you will be able to use that scroll. When you use an item using UMD, you roll a UMD check (1d20+ UMD modifier) against the DC of the item. Scrolls are usually 20+caster level of the scroll, wands are flat 20.
So let's say you want to cast a mirror image scroll as a cleric. A standard mirror image scroll is caster level 3. So you need to beat a DC of 23 to use the scroll with your cleric.

[Charlemagne]

OK but if my wizard already was able to use a mirror image scroll due to class and already knowing it. Does UMD add anything to his ability or is it just overkill?

[Drake]

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

OK but if my wizard already was able to use a mirror image scroll due to class and already knowing it. Does UMD add anything to his ability or is it just overkill?

It does nothing. UMD is only for stuff that your class can't use. And it's only for determining if you can force the use or not.

Well that and UMD skill checks in dialogs.

[Charlemagne]

Originally posted by Drake:

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

OK but if my wizard already was able to use a mirror image scroll due to class and already knowing it. Does UMD add anything to his ability or is it just overkill?

It does nothing. UMD is only for stuff that your class can't use. And it's only for determining if you can force the use or not.

Well that and UMD skill checks in dialogs.

Got it thanks.

[asame_akio]

It’s also worth noting that you can make multiple UMD checks while paused and a failed check doesn’t consume a charge/the scroll, so you can pretty easily brute force activation outside of combat if you have a UMD bonus of +9 or higher. The only reason to pump to max ranks seems to be if you need spells that aren’t on your class’s spell list during combat or are using it in dialogue.

[Invisible]

There are some rare locations, where a UMD-Checks is made to get some machine or magic device going.

[Charlemagne]

I guess a few levels of UMD don't hurt. It seems that a wizard can't use a wand or scroll if he doesn't know that particular spell even from preferred school. At least that's happening to my new wizard to whom I didn't assign any UMD.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

I guess a few levels of UMD don't hurt. It seems that a wizard can't use a wand or scroll if he doesn't know that particular spell even from preferred school. At least that's happening to my new wizard to whom I didn't assign any UMD.

What was the spell ? wizards can cast anything in their repertoire, even if they didn't copy the spells in their spellbook. If a spell needs UMD as a wizard, that usually means it's a divine spell. Just because it's from your favored school doesn't mean you can cast it if it's not an arcane spell.
Like cure wounds is a conjuration spell, but having a conjurer wizard won't make you able to cast cure wound.

[Charlemagne]

Originally posted by Drake:

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

I guess a few levels of UMD don't hurt. It seems that a wizard can't use a wand or scroll if he doesn't know that particular spell even from preferred school. At least that's happening to my new wizard to whom I didn't assign any UMD.

What was the spell ? wizards can cast anything in their repertoire, even if they didn't copy the spells in their spellbook. If a spell needs UMD as a wizard, that usually means it's a divine spell. Just because it's from your favored school doesn't mean you can cast it if it's not an arcane spell.
Like cure wounds is a conjuration spell, but having a conjurer wizard won't make you able to cast cure wound.

I think that's it. I was looking to some spells that are usually used by clerics.

[asame_akio]

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

I think that's it. I was looking to some spells that are usually used by clerics.

You can use a scroll/wand of any spell on your class list without making a UMD check, whether you know the spell or not; but no matter how specialized you may be in a school, you can’t use a scroll/wand of a spell that isn’t on your class list without a UMD check.

[Radiac]

It's worth noting that there are some spells that your Wizard can never learn, like Cure Serious Wounds, that you might want him to read a scroll of, if the Cleric is down, for example. But then there are also potions for that stuff too...

[Drake]

Originally posted by Radiac:

It's worth noting that there are some spells that your Wizard can never learn, like Cure Serious Wounds, that you might want him to read a scroll of, if the Cleric is down, for example. But then there are also potions for that stuff too...

Well it's a party of 6, usually there should be a divine caster or bard/alchemist to take care of other types of spells. Unless you have a specific restricted party in mind, a wizard doesn't really need UMD.

[Radiac]

Yeah, the only skill that like everyone should have is Perception, because every party member get's to roll to perceive something, like traps, secret doors, and treasure chests. Assuming you have 6 party members, and assuming they all have, say, a 30% chance to see something like that, the odds they all whiff and nobody sees the thing are under 12% when you do the math.

[Elena Ravenwood]

UMD is really good for few reasons:
1. You need healing spell, but doesnt want to include dedicated cleric in your party comp.
Solution : Bump UMD on one of your party member, preferably Sorc, Bard, Paladin since UMD scales with CHARISMA. For the same spell, wand cost the least gold per spell. Wand>Scroll>Potion. However, divine scroll are extremely easy to acquire, lots from loot and can be purchased in large quantity from priest vendor.

2. You want your support to be useful in battle.
Dedicated support use all his spell slot especially in earlier stages to buff his team. Depending on your team comp, AC buff is very important for frontline while AB roll is essential on hard/unfair difficulty.

Before a fight even begin, your support ran out of spell from buffing your team, hence limiting the option on what he can do in actual battle. Shooting with bow is inaccurate, fighting defensively as secondary tank isnt viable on harder difficulty, demoralize can be questionable, and cantrip has very low impact sometimes none (orison). So UMD allows this character to use all those random scroll you got from god-know-where. When youve unlocked vendors that sells wizard scroll/wand, you can reliably cast fireball and other dc spell that isnt ranged touch.

I often use 2 frontline (str+dex), 1 smilodon, 1 dedicated support, and 1 secondary-support with dc spell for control/damage. This 4 man party ensure faster lv progression (need to change xp sharing in option), while still getting the necessary skill to make a good team (int spellcaster is really good here, so you can dump int on the other 3.)

3. While it is generally bad idea to heal in battle, sometimes you just need to do it since everyone has a grudge on that one character. UMD allows your team to outheal the damage, or prevent him from getting knocked unconscious, which will trigger AoO upon standing back. It basically restarts your team situation and forces the enemy to roll his dice again. You just hope that he'll be less lucky or you do the standard practice : save scumming.

Also while i dont think this is viable in unfair difficulty, a good summoner can profit from extended fight. Buffed up summons on hard difficulty dont just tank damage, but can hit enemies. Low level summons have around 15 AB roll, so unless enemies exceed 30 AC, they can reliably decimate a handful of them by themselves. Haste and Rage is a good in-combat buff. Debuff like Arcon's Aura and Curse is good too.
PS: I dont know if i remember this correctly, you can debuff a raged monster with thundercaller rage song. So that's -4 AC debuff in total, without another enchantment bonus to str and con.

[Orion Pax]

Originally posted by Elena Ravenwood:

UMD is really good for few reasons:
1. You need healing spell, but doesnt want to include dedicated cleric in your party comp.
Solution : Bump UMD on one of your party member, preferably Sorc, Bard, Paladin since UMD scales with CHARISMA. For the same spell, wand cost the least gold per spell. Wand>Scroll>Potion. However, divine scroll are extremely easy to acquire, lots from loot and can be purchased in large quantity from priest vendor. Also while you dont need UMD for using potion, you cant use it on others. This matters if your damage dealer need some healing, and spending his standard action to heal can lead to disaster.

2. You want your support to be useful in battle.
Dedicated support use all his spell slot especially in earlier stages to buff his team. Depending on your team comp, AC buff is very important for frontline while AB roll is essential on hard/unfair difficulty.

Before a fight even begin, your support ran out of spell from buffing your team, hence limiting the option on what he can do in actual battle. Shooting with bow is inaccurate, fighting defensively as secondary tank isnt viable on harder difficulty, demoralize can be questionable, and cantrip has very low impact sometimes none (orison). So UMD allows this character to use all those random scroll you got from god-know-where. When youve unlocked vendors that sells wizard scroll/wand, you can reliably cast fireball and other dc spell that isnt ranged touch.

I often use 2 frontline (str+dex), 1 smilodon, 1 dedicated support, and 1 secondary-support with dc spell for control/damage. This 4 man party ensure faster lv progression (need to change xp sharing in option), while still getting the necessary skill to make a good team (int spellcaster is really good here, so you can dump int on the other 3.)

3. While it is generally bad idea to heal in battle, sometimes you just need to do it since everyone has a grudge on that one character. UMD allows your team to outheal the damage, or prevent him from getting knocked unconscious, which will trigger AoO upon standing back. It basically restarts your team situation and forces the enemy to roll his dice again. You just hope that he'll be less lucky or you do the standard practice : save scumming.

Also while i dont think this is viable in unfair difficulty, a good summoner can profit from extended fight. Buffed up summons on hard difficulty dont just tank damage, but can hit enemies. Low level summons have around 15 AB roll, so unless enemies exceed 30 AC, they can reliably decimate a handful of them by themselves. Haste and Rage is a good in-combat buff. Debuff like Arcon's Aura and Curse is good too.
PS: I dont know if i remember this correctly, you can debuff a raged monster with thundercaller rage song. So that's -4 AC debuff in total, without another enchantment bonus to str and con.

Super helpful breakdown. This can take a while to figure out. It's about filling gaps really.

And I think there are two tiers:
1) Decent UMD to use wand/scroll out of combat for buffs & heals, where it may take multiple tries but that's okay.
2) Max UMD to use wand/scroll in battle reliably.

One of my main uses really is for my non-casters, primarily a melee Main Character, for when they are solo and need to buff on their own. UMD is my main dump stat for them, one so they can do it at all, and two so it doesn't take forever between different spell attempts, for spells that only last per round.