Break Enchantment - A joke spell?

[Loquacious Lasagna]

Seriously, all this spell ever does is dispell your own damned buffs. When my entire party has had a spell that is literally from the enchantment school cast on them (overwhelming presence), it doesn't even attempt to dispell it. What the ♥♥♥♥? Am I losing my mind?

[Invisible]

The same is with "dispel". It will dispel your own stuff as well. There is no dispell / break enchantment that targets only oppenents spells on yourself. So if you are heavly buffed, it's useless. Its a pathfinder/dnd rule issue.

[Loquacious Lasagna]

Originally posted by Invisible:

The same is with "dispel". It will dispel your own stuff as well. There is no dispell / break enchantment that targets only oppenents spells on yourself. So if you are heavly buffed, it's useless. Its a pathfinder/dnd rule issue.

I understand that, my issue is that my party was effected by overwhelming presence- a spell from the school of enchantment, which under the spell tags has "mind-affecting" and "emotional". I used break enchantment, and it did not remove the effect. Then I used the spell (I forget the name, rapture something) that says it removes all emotional effects, and it also did not remove the overwhelming presence from my party members. I'm baffled as to if this is a bug or not, as any time my party members are effected by something I know to be an enchantment, like hold person or terrible laughter, the break enchantment spell doesn't actually remove them.

[Invisible]

Originally posted by Loquacious Lasagna:

Originally posted by Invisible:

The same is with "dispel". It will dispel your own stuff as well. There is no dispell / break enchantment that targets only oppenents spells on yourself. So if you are heavly buffed, it's useless. Its a pathfinder/dnd rule issue.

I understand that, my issue is that my party was effected by overwhelming presence- a spell from the school of enchantment, which under the spell tags has "mind-affecting" and "emotional". I used break enchantment, and it did not remove the effect. Then I used the spell (I forget the name, rapture something) that says it removes all emotional effects, and it also did not remove the overwhelming presence from my party members. I'm baffled as to if this is a bug or not, as any time my party members are effected by something I know to be an enchantment, like hold person or terrible laughter, the break enchantment spell doesn't actually remove them.

These spells need to overcome the DC of the spell they target. If the caster was very high level and / or has diverse feats to increase the DC it can be very diffcult to remove.

To calculate the Spell DC: 10 + spell level + ability modifier (e.g. Wizards use INT, Clerics use WIS, Bards use CHA)

Have you checked the log why it failed? You need to overcome this DC with a dice roll + modificators.

It is a bug if you have a successful dice roll in the log and the spell is still there.

I will try it myself next time i play kingmaker and report back.


EDIT: Searched here https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Overwhelming+Grief

Overwhelming Grief Information
Level: 4
School: Enchantment
Spell Details:

Target:
target center creature pathfinder wrath of the righteous wiki guide 75px
One enemy creature within close range.

Duration: 1 round/level

Saving Throw: Will negates (save each round)

Spell Resistance: Affected by target's spell resistance

Spell Descriptors: Mind-Affecting, Compulsion, Emotion, Negative Emotion

Casting Time: Standard Action
Spell Effect: You cause a single opponent to become profoundly stricken with intense grief. They can take no actions, take a –2 penalty to Armor Class, and lose their Dexterity bonus (if any). They can attempt a new save each round to break the spell's effect.

[vex]

Originally posted by Loquacious Lasagna:

These spells need to overcome the DC of the spell they target. If the caster was very high level and / or has diverse feats to increase the DC it can be very diffcult to remove.

This. Having played a lot of tabletop Pathfinder, I can second that removing effects applied by enemies through dispel magic or break enchantment tends to be pretty difficult. The DCs are 11+ spell caster level and your role is 1d20 + caster level (though break enchantment caps out at +15). So assuming your caster is not multi-classed and is the same level as the effect they're trying to dispel, they start off with <50% chance of success. Add on top of that that in a balanced encounter where the party outnumbers the enemies, the enemies will be higher level than the party, thus higher caster level, thus lower chance of success.

Generally speaking, it's a waste of a round to try and dispel or break enchantment. In tabletop land, it's better suited to remove long-term effects or enchantments during down time where the caster can make several attempts over multiple castings/in-game days.

[Loquacious Lasagna]

I understand it needs to roll to dispell it, I'm saying it didn't even attempt to dispell it. I checked the log, and I saw it rolling to remove my Haste and Prayer effects from all my allies, but I did not see it even trying to dispell the Overwhelming Presence debuff. I'm not sure what other tools my cleric or bard really has to prevent spells like that from wrecking my party. I guess buffing saving throws with the bard?

[Invisible]

Originally posted by Loquacious Lasagna:

I understand it needs to roll to dispell it, I'm saying it didn't even attempt to dispell it. I checked the log, and I saw it rolling to remove my Haste and Prayer effects from all my allies, but I did not see it even trying to dispell the Overwhelming Presence debuff. I'm not sure what other tools my cleric or bard really has to prevent spells like that from wrecking my party. I guess buffing saving throws with the bard?

For dispel you have two options: target or area. Choose target if you want to dispel something from one character, other wise it goes to your party (if close together).

For saving throws there are several possibilites:
- Recepies give cooking bonus to saving throws
- Moral bonus, e.g.heroism or bard song
- Luck bonus from prayer (ring of luck does the trick too)
- Capes
- Feats: Iron will, lighning reflexes, great fortitude etc. (this is a character build dilemma)
- Maybe more

Diffent types of boni stack!

[Loquacious Lasagna]

Originally posted by Invisible:

Originally posted by Loquacious Lasagna:

I understand it needs to roll to dispell it, I'm saying it didn't even attempt to dispell it. I checked the log, and I saw it rolling to remove my Haste and Prayer effects from all my allies, but I did not see it even trying to dispell the Overwhelming Presence debuff. I'm not sure what other tools my cleric or bard really has to prevent spells like that from wrecking my party. I guess buffing saving throws with the bard?

For dispel you have two options: target or area. Choose target if you want to dispel something from one character, other wise it goes to your party (if close together).

For saving throws there are several possibilites:
- Recepies give cooking bonus to saving throws
- Moral bonus, e.g.heroism or bard song
- Luck bonus from prayer (ring of luck does the trick too)
- Capes
- Feats: Iron will, lighning reflexes, great fortitude etc. (this is a character build dilemma)
- Maybe more

Diffent types of boni stack!

Yes, I understand all that. sorry if it's unclear. My point is I am using the spell "Break Enchantment" with the description, quote, "frees from enchantments, transmutations, and curses." My party is affected by an enchantment spell. I use "Break Enchantment" and I see, in the combat log, it attempts to remove the Transmutation haste from my party, but not the Enchantment debuff. It didn't fail the roll, it didn't even try. I know it can remove multiple as it also attempted to dispell Prayer, but it did not attempt to remove the actual Enchantment spell I was casting Break Enchantment to remove. This is why I'm wondering if it's bugged or not.

[99Random]

I am not able to find the direct reference to Overwhelming Presence, but I believe Break Enchantment will not work.

Overwhelming Presence is a max level spell (Bard 6/Cleric 9) so see below:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/break-enchantment/

"If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower."

To be clear, the Pathfinder rules do not state Overwhelming Presence as being immune to Dispel Magic in its normal form, but I think the Wicked Enchanter has it coded that way so the rule applies.

[Loquacious Lasagna]

Hmm yeah I'm not sure. I didn't see any text in-game about needing a specific level or below but it's pretty hard to tell how it all works under the hood. I mean, you get ranged sneak attacks if the person you're attacking is flanked by anyone, which is definitely not how it's supposed to work in tabletop so, who knows.

[99Random]

Originally posted by Loquacious Lasagna:

Hmm yeah I'm not sure. I didn't see any text in-game about needing a specific level or below but it's pretty hard to tell how it all works under the hood. I mean, you get ranged sneak attacks if the person you're attacking is flanked by anyone, which is definitely not how it's supposed to work in tabletop so, who knows.

Put another way, Pathfinder has several mechanisms that will cause enemy abilities to break the standard rules.
One of the most common is setting it as a Supernatural Ability and that would actually be plausible considering the background of the Wicked Enchanter.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/

If so, not a bug, but it would certainly be nice if the log declared what was happening like a GM would to decrease player frustration

[Loquacious Lasagna]

Originally posted by 99Random:

Originally posted by Loquacious Lasagna:

Hmm yeah I'm not sure. I didn't see any text in-game about needing a specific level or below but it's pretty hard to tell how it all works under the hood. I mean, you get ranged sneak attacks if the person you're attacking is flanked by anyone, which is definitely not how it's supposed to work in tabletop so, who knows.

Put another way, Pathfinder has several mechanisms that will cause enemy abilities to break the standard rules.
One of the most common is setting it as a Supernatural Ability and that would actually be plausible considering the background of the Wicked Enchanter.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/

If so, not a bug, but it would certainly be nice if the log declared what was happening like a GM would to decrease player frustration

In this case it was king irovetti, not a wicked enchanter.

[Brother Falcon]

Originally posted by Loquacious Lasagna:

Seriously, all this spell ever does is dispell your own damned buffs. When my entire party has had a spell that is literally from the enchantment school cast on them (overwhelming presence), it doesn't even attempt to dispell it. What the ♥♥♥♥? Am I losing my mind?

I absolutely despise the overwhelming presence spell and would take it out of the game if I could. It lasts for 1.5-2 minutes (so the entire fight and then some) and you can exhaust every single spell in your arsenal trying to get rid of it and nothing works.

This is why as much as I love pathfinder games, BG2 will always be my favorite. Whatever overpowered BS the enemy has, you ALWAYS have a way to counter it within the rules of the game. Pathfinder just tells you to reload your save or kick rocks.

[ptirodaktill]

You can counter overwhelming presence with sl8 cleric aura spell, as it make your party immune to mind effects.

[reidj062]

Originally posted by Invisible:

The same is with "dispel". It will dispel your own stuff as well. There is no dispell / break enchantment that targets only oppenents spells on yourself. So if you are heavly buffed, it's useless. Its a pathfinder/dnd rule issue.

It's not a Pathfinder issue. In tabletop you can specify what you want to dispel/break. This is an Owlcat issue.