Cleave....does it work in this game?

[mikeet207]

I've read a lot of posts concerning the differences from pathfinder cleave and D&D 3.5. All that seems logical to me. My question is that is it worth using if you have to be "5 feet" away from the other target? It takes a full round action up? So in most situations isn't always best to not use it so you can get a 2nd or 3rd attack? It seems like it's a gimic ability or crap pre-req to get an even worse gimic ability (Finishing Cleave).

[Thrax]

it does work, and you can start off the game with Great Cleave, and get Finishing cleave by level 2 or so.
It does work, but I would reccomend going with a reach weapon like glaive, that way the effect procts more frequently when fighting mobs.

Cleave is not going to scale well against a single target high level, but you need to understand that extra attacks follow at a lower BAB, so cleave can be made to fight wipe smaller enemies. Throw in power attack and you will be whirlwind splatting lower AC enemies left and right.

If you go 2h Fighter, than backswing and the archtype abilities scale very well with full attacks, and you can ignore cleave, if you want to optimize that way.

Vital Strike is great if you are going to go with a high dice damage weapon, and to tear up single target enemies.

Any action feat is going to require further feat investment if you want it to stay competitive with a full attack, unless you are a low BAB class.

Bottom line is that cleave works, but it works really well with a reach weapon.

[OdinTheGrand]

Cleave doesn't benefit from reach (bug?) but cleaving finish does. You can see the attack aoe when you hover your mouse over the cleave action; it's standard melee range regardless of weapon.

Have your caster use enlarge person on your cleaver. Their reach increases with size in addition to any extra weapon reach as well.

I find cleave with enlarge person becomes much better at mid levels when you aren't one-shotting many things anymore. You can at least hit 2 or 3 targets with full BAB. And, if you do happen to get a kill then cleaving finish will get you an extra attack in as well.

If they fix the reach bug then having a reach weapon plus enlarge person will make cleave extremely powerful since you'll threaten a 20-foot diameter or so aoe.

[mikeet207]

Thank you both, all good responses. Gives me somet thoughts.

[Suport Vector Machines]

I do think cleave is good in this game, since enemy usually pay little attention about their position, you will find cleave works in most situation where enemy clusters just stand besides each others.

Ofc it is not that effective if your build heavily relies on multiple-hit full attack like a 2-handed fighter with backswing, but in such situation finishing cleaving is actually an attractive feat since your damage will be high enough to deliver a lot of finishing strike against weak enemy, plus 2-handed fighther lack aoe damage.

[Caged]

Problem with cleave is that it's active and requires micro managing when everything just dies way too fast....

[OdinTheGrand]

Another note about enlarge person is that it's a minute/caster level meaning you generally only need to cast it once or twice between rests.

[mikeet207]

Originally posted by Caged:

Problem with cleave is that it's active and requires micro managing when everything just dies way too fast....

This is the real reason why it concerns me. Why isn't it just passive like in all the other crpg's that have used a similar rule set (Temple of Elemental Evil for example it was an amazing skill).

[OdinTheGrand]

It's because it's not passive. You give up all your attacks for a round to make one attack at full BAB that hits multiple targets.

Cleave and Great Cleave have functionally replaced Whirlwind Attack from DnD 3.5.

Finishing Cleave and Improved Finishing Cleave have replaced Cleave and Great Cleave from DnD 3.5.

[mikeet207]

Originally posted by OdinTheGrand:

It's because it's not passive. You give up all your attacks for a round to make one attack at full BAB that hits multiple targets.

Cleave and Great Cleave have functionally replaced Whirlwind Attack from DnD 3.5.

Finishing Cleave and Improved Finishing Cleave has replaced Cleave and Great Cleave from DnD 3.5.

Fair enough. Still it is very micro-managey. It's not fun having to pause when you "think" it migth be ideal...only for something to move away or be just out of reach. I think the game should have some adjustments with things like this that just don't translate well to a video game.

[OdinTheGrand]

You can put cleave on "auto-cast" by right-clicking the action icon in the hotbar. This will put your cleaver to always cleave every round. It's not very micro-management intensive until you get into a battle that you have to think through.

In fact, I find about 90% of fights in this game are 3-4 things that all get hit once from my two-hander. If any of them die then a cleaving finish cascades through the rest. I see like 4-8 attack rolls spread out on all the enemies in an instant.

No micro-management aside from the initial cast of enlarge person and the right click to auto cast cleave.

My only disappointment is the lack of reach with cleave. Sometimes I find my cleaver ahead of my AC tanks so I have to occasionally rein him in.

[mikeet207]

Originally posted by OdinTheGrand:

You can put cleave on "auto-cast" by right-clicking the action icon in the hotbar. This will put your cleaver to always cleave every round. It's not very micro-management intensive until you get into a battle that you have to think through.

In fact, I find about 90% of fights in this game are 3-4 things that all get hit once from my two-hander. If any of them die then a cleaving finish cascades through the rest. I see like 4-8 attack rolls on every enemy in an instant.

No micro-management aside from the initial cast of enlarge person and the right click to auto cast cleave.

But that is what I mean, you have to commit to that over just allowing multiple attacks per round. It's something you have to constnatly turn off and on to get the most effecient effects. I think it's just poor implimentation for the ability.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Originally posted by mikeet207:

I've read a lot of posts concerning the differences from pathfinder cleave and D&D 3.5. All that seems logical to me. My question is that is it worth using if you have to be "5 feet" away from the other target? It takes a full round action up? So in most situations isn't always best to not use it so you can get a 2nd or 3rd attack? It seems like it's a gimic ability or crap pre-req to get an even worse gimic ability (Finishing Cleave).

You can take Cleave and then finishing Cleave and it's basically like it was in 3.5, in many ways its actually better... because instead of only getting a cleave on death you now get a cleave every attack.

[mikeet207]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

Originally posted by mikeet207:

I've read a lot of posts concerning the differences from pathfinder cleave and D&D 3.5. All that seems logical to me. My question is that is it worth using if you have to be "5 feet" away from the other target? It takes a full round action up? So in most situations isn't always best to not use it so you can get a 2nd or 3rd attack? It seems like it's a gimic ability or crap pre-req to get an even worse gimic ability (Finishing Cleave).

You can take Cleave and then finishing Cleave and it's basically like it was in 3.5, in many ways its actually better... because instead of only getting a cleave on death you now get a cleave every attack.

Maybe i'll try a two-handed fighter or barbarian build and use it. Probably havn't commited yet. I'll keep an open mind.

[OdinTheGrand]

I think the implementation is about as good as it gets for an active ability. There is literally zero micro-management for the majority of encounters. Then, for the encounters that matter, it's one click every now and then.

You're going to spend much more time on any caster or position-dependent class. You're complaining over literally the least time-consuming thing in the game.

In fact, cleave on auto-cast will save you much more time over the course of the game than probably anything else.

When you see a scythe rip through 4 things and land a crit or two then you'll enjoy pausing the game and reading back through the combat log to see that it was, in fact, several hundred damage dealt in total in about a microsecond. And then it happens again in the next round when a new wave of eager enemies approach.

[mikeet207]

Originally posted by OdinTheGrand:

I think the implementation is about as good as it gets for an active ability. There is literally zero micro-management for the majority of encounters. Then, for the encounters that matter, it's one click every now and then.

You're going to spend much more time on any caster or position-dependent class. You're literally complaining over the least time-consuming thing in the game.

Cleave on auto-cast will save you much more time over the course of the game than probably anything else.

When you see a scythe rip through 4 things with and land a crit or two then you'll enjoy pausing the game and reading back through the combat log to see that it was, in fact, several hundred damage dealt in total in about a microsecond. And then it happens again in the next round when a new wave of eager enemies approach.

yea i'm doing some testing with it. I guess my thing is also I can probably beat the kind of enemies that it works well on without it...they're all low AC and low saves....could mez them all and take my time. But it's good in those rare situations where they all focus on your fighters.

I guess i prefer the fighters have very little micro-managing and focusing that part of the game on my casters.