WHY.. just why?

[Asmodeus]

alright so, i have decided to try out this game and my first try at it was at making a sorcerer. but then this game, for some genius reason, decided to give him an effin crossbow.
how does that even work? what genius decided that it was a good idea to give a sorcerer a bloody crossbow.
that's not even mentioning the clunky gameplay. spells feels so slow and ineffective.
immediately dropped.

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by Sharindel:

Sorry to say.. but the crossbow is the weapon of chois for a wizard and mage.
Because its one of the only usefull weopons for them. They have no AC, so less spellslots that you need more then level 5-8 to get something to roll. Yes there are magestaffs in the game, but you don't start with one...

but.. yeah.. all other games give mages a staff or something like that.. its not the fault of the game but i can understand someone with no exp in d20/fantasy.. that they want there rod.

In my D&D Rounds, the mages often buy a staff with unlimited lev 0 spells.. like light. Its very usefull if you can light everything... or some usefull stuff like a fiery touch.. to light every flameable object. Its nice to have, but not overpowered. But we play with the "unlimited spellslots rule". Where you can caste one lev 1 spell as much as you like.

hmm that's definitely different than the rpgs i'm used to playing. not saying that every rpg is the same. it's just that this one is extremely strange.

Originally posted by Shadow88:

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

so wait let me get this straight, the developers decided that a sorcerer is more proficient in crossbows rather than staves? hmm yeaaaa no.. going back to divinity

As mentioned; staves in Pathfinder are nothing more than a stick to beat someone over the head with. The kind that shoot magical bolts don't show up until you're about level 10 or so (and, remember, Pathfinder has a level cap of 20 - it doesn't have epic levels the way DnD 3.5 did). And, also as mentioned, a spellcaster doesn't want to be anywhere near melee if they can avoid it. And crossbows are pretty simple to use, particularly light crossbows like the one you start with.

yea your previous explanation was a solid one and made me grasp the core of the game, it's just alot different to what i'm used to. wizards/sorc are my favorite in any rpgs and i love their staves, so it was kind of a game breaker for me. but if they come back at a higher level then i might reconsider

Originally posted by Escapist83:

If you're a 1st level sorcerer/wizard and you're using a stave then you're doing it wrong.

apparently that's the case

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Originally posted by Shadow88:

As mentioned; staves in Pathfinder are nothing more than a stick to beat someone over the head with. The kind that shoot magical bolts don't show up until you're about level 10 or so (and, remember, Pathfinder has a level cap of 20 - it doesn't have epic levels the way DnD 3.5 did). And, also as mentioned, a spellcaster doesn't want to be anywhere near melee if they can avoid it. And crossbows are pretty simple to use, particularly light crossbows like the one you start with.

yea your previous explanation was a solid one and made me grasp the core of the game, it's just alot different to what i'm used to. wizards/sorc are my favorite in any rpgs and i love their staves, so it was kind of a game breaker for me. but if they come back at a higher level then i might reconsider

The closest staves to what you're after that come up in late game are things like this: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-fire

They cast spells akin to a wand (in that you activate it like an item and the spell consumes the indicated number of charges in the staff). Unlike wands or scrolls, casting a spell from a staff still uses the wielder's stats to set things like damage and the DC for any relevant saving throws.
So it's almost like having access to the spells even if your wizard didn't prepare them that day or your sorcerer never learnt them.

They can hold ten charges and, honestly, I don't know how this game will handle recharging them. On the tabletop you can restore a single charge per day (in the morning as the caster is refreshing their spells) by sacrificing a spell slot for the day of the same level as the highest spell in the staff (this isn't permanent, it's more like they cast the spell into the staff to recharge it). So recharging the staff of fire I linked before would require you to spend a 4th level spell slot each day, with each such slot restoring one charge to the staff.

Again; Kingmaker may handle recharging them differently, I don't know, I haven't gotten far enough to find any.

[BoringORacale]

this games rules is based on DnD(and in this case more specifically Pathfinder) so you might want to look a little into that, not a lot mind just a peak at those spell casters. But don't just say this game sucks becasue of that

[[SWE]Junker]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Originally posted by Shadow88:

To elaborate on this and my previous post; here are the reasons why a starting Sorcerer, Wizard, Arcanist (they're not in the video game) or similar class would start with a crossbow over any other weapon:

• They're one of the few weapons these dedicated spellcasters are proficient in and can use.
  
• These classes have absolutely zero proficiencies with armour or shields (due to both interfering with arcane spells) so at first are reliant entirely on their Dex modifier and spells like shield or mage armour for defence. But the best defence against melee is to not be in melee in the first place.
  
• Casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity (a free attack from an enemy the caster is in melee with) unless the caster passes a concentration check to cast defensively. And the number to beat on such a concentration check is almost prohibitivly high for a low-level character.
  
• Many of the spells a low-level caster will rely on are cantrips. And combat cantrips tend to do only 1d3 damage, compared to the 1d8 damage a light crossbow deals. Their 1st level spells are going to be relatively few and are most-likely going to be spent on spells like the aforementioned shield and mage armour.

So to put all of that together; a low level spellcaster wants to stay out of melee, at a distance, but where the direct damage spells they count on at such low levels are of questionable use. Easiest way to continue contributing to a fight in such a situation? A ranged weapon. What's a cheap, easy-to-use ranged weapon that these classes are proficient in? A crossbow.

your explanation makes sense, but as a long time rpg player this aspect of the game completely breaks it for me..

It makes sence, yet it doesn't ?

A long time RPG player ? What games are you talking about here really , Divinity ? Computer RPG's in general ?

Casting a spell in melee will kill you instantly as a low level wizard since it will trigger an attack of oppertunity, crossbow or darts is then a LOGIC choice of weapon, not that you are going to do any damage with it anyways , it's just used as back up! The situation will be even worse if you had a staff.

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by Shadow88:

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

yea your previous explanation was a solid one and made me grasp the core of the game, it's just alot different to what i'm used to. wizards/sorc are my favorite in any rpgs and i love their staves, so it was kind of a game breaker for me. but if they come back at a higher level then i might reconsider

The closest staves to what you're after that come up in late game are things like this: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-fire

They cast spells akin to a wand (in that you activate it like an item and the spell consumes the indicated number of charges in the staff). Unlike wands or scrolls, casting a spell from a staff still uses the wielder's stats to set things like damage and the DC for any relevant saving throws.
So it's almost like having access to the spells even if your wizard didn't prepare them that day or your sorcerer never learnt them.

They can hold ten charges and, honestly, I don't know how this game will handle recharging them. On the tabletop you can restore a single charge per day (in the morning as the caster is refreshing their spells) by sacrificing a spell slot for the day of the same level as the highest spell in the staff (this isn't permanent, it's more like they cast the spell into the staff to recharge it). So recharing the staff of fire I linked before would require you to spend a 4th level spell slot each day, with each such slot restoring one charge to the staff.

Again; Kingmaker may handle recharging them differently, I don't know, I haven't gotten far enough to find any.

thank you for taking the time to explain everything, i appreciate it.. i will give it another try.. but what about the other issue. which is : "a spell when aimed at a person in a certain position, if that said person moves from that place, the spell will actually hit the previous empty place instead of the character himself "

[Arkzus]

So my memory is pretty crappy, so I could be remembering wrong, but if I'm not then in pretty much all the other D&D based games Wizards and Sorcerers started out with slings. Frickin' slings. Not a whole lot different than having a crossbow IMO, though a crossbow is far more ascetically pleasing. Staves in these games are generally Quarterstaves, which are melee weapons intended for melee combat. They are not conduits of magical energy like in some games. And on a side note, this game and the other D&D based games are of a different genre than Divinity Original Sin. Visually they're similar, but with how the combat works they are really quite different so personally I wouldn't ever compare them.

[Gina]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Originally posted by Shadow88:

The closest staves to what you're after that come up in late game are things like this: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-fire

They cast spells akin to a wand (in that you activate it like an item and the spell consumes the indicated number of charges in the staff). Unlike wands or scrolls, casting a spell from a staff still uses the wielder's stats to set things like damage and the DC for any relevant saving throws.
So it's almost like having access to the spells even if your wizard didn't prepare them that day or your sorcerer never learnt them.

They can hold ten charges and, honestly, I don't know how this game will handle recharging them. On the tabletop you can restore a single charge per day (in the morning as the caster is refreshing their spells) by sacrificing a spell slot for the day of the same level as the highest spell in the staff (this isn't permanent, it's more like they cast the spell into the staff to recharge it). So recharing the staff of fire I linked before would require you to spend a 4th level spell slot each day, with each such slot restoring one charge to the staff.

Again; Kingmaker may handle recharging them differently, I don't know, I haven't gotten far enough to find any.

thank you for taking the time to explain everything, i appreciate it.. i will give it another try.. but what about the other issue. which is : "a spell when aimed at a person in a certain position, if that said person moves from that place, the spell will actually hit the previous empty place instead of the character himself "

Assuming that you're trying to cast a area of effect spell, design flaw I think. With the way they did combat, if you set everyone's orders at the beginning of the round, and the opponents beat you in the initiative, they'll act before you and can move.

If it's a single target spell, it should hit the person no matter where they go.

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by SWEJunker:

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

your explanation makes sense, but as a long time rpg player this aspect of the game completely breaks it for me..

It makes sence, yet it doesn't ?

A long time RPG player ? What games are you talking about here really , Divinity ? Computer RPG's in general ?

Casting a spell in melee will kill you instantly as a low level wizard since it will trigger an attack of oppertunity, that is then a LOGIC choice of weapon, not that you are going to do any damage with it anyways , it's just used as back up! The situation will be even worse if you had a staff.

games like diablo, divinity, TQ, DA, DK4 etc... i have been gaming since 1997 and it's mostly been rts/rpg games obviously i play other type of games, but those two genre are my favorite..
also stuff like BL2, WOW etc.. interests me as well

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by Gina:

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

thank you for taking the time to explain everything, i appreciate it.. i will give it another try.. but what about the other issue. which is : "a spell when aimed at a person in a certain position, if that said person moves from that place, the spell will actually hit the previous empty place instead of the character himself "

Assuming that you're trying to cast a area of effect spell, design flaw I think. With the way they did combat, if you set everyone's orders at the beginning of the round, and the opponents beat you in the initiative, they'll act before you and can move.

If it's a single target spell, it should hit the person no matter where they go.

i'm talking about target spells not aoe, weird because in my case it would just go past the character

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

thank you for taking the time to explain everything, i appreciate it.. i will give it another try.. but what about the other issue. which is : "a spell when aimed at a person in a certain position, if that said person moves from that place, the spell will actually hit the previous empty place instead of the character himself "

As mentioned; depends on the spell. If it has an AOE (like, say, Burning Hands) then it will always be targetting terrain, never a person.

Spells that require a specific target, like Acid Splash, should aim for the target the whole time regardless of where they move. If you're referring to spells like Acid Splash/Jolt/Ray of Frost/etc, then it could just be that you're failing the attack roll and the visual of it flying past the target is indicating that.

Spells always require you to target either a creature or an area so check the spell's description and see which one you're using. Or give me the name of a spell you've been having this issue with and I can find it in a second on the Pathfinder SRD (which may be for tabletop, but I don't see what a spell targets changing at all, certainly not at lower levels at least).

[Gina]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Originally posted by Gina:

Assuming that you're trying to cast a area of effect spell, design flaw I think. With the way they did combat, if you set everyone's orders at the beginning of the round, and the opponents beat you in the initiative, they'll act before you and can move.

If it's a single target spell, it should hit the person no matter where they go.

i'm talking about target spells not aoe, weird because in my case it would just go past the character

What spells are doing that? Some require a roll to hit, possibly you're just missing?

[BLKCandy]

Ranged touch spell I guess. Those miss a lot without dex.

But... Thanks to real-time with initiative system, aiming spell in the game is horribld. There are times when my spell cast count to zero and the character just hold the spell for like three or four seconds before releasing. Probably waiting for someone to finish the turn.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by BLKCandy:

Ranged touch spell I guess. Those miss a lot without dex.

But... Thanks to real-time with initiative system, aiming spell in the game is horribld. There are times when my spell cast count to zero and the character just hold the spell for like three or four seconds before releasing. Probably waiting for someone to finish the turn.

Keep in mind that spells have a casting time that doesn't start until the character's initiative timer over their head hits zero. Spells that are cast as a standard action will take three seconds to cast while some spells (thinking of Enlarge Person specifically here) take a full round to cast.

[Ferien auf dem Innenhof]

Originally posted by Valko:

I never stop to wonder how stupid casuals are!

Wrong statement. Everybody is a casual gamer in some genres or games. But not everyone so quickly writes emberassing postings like OP does :-)

[Baijiu]

Some spells like magic missile never miss so at higher levels, it's sometimes the only thing that can hit high AC enemies.

Other spells, well that's why everyone says spellcasters have to be smart because you have to plan out spells and the bigger spells take a lot of planning in DnD/Pathfinder. Mostly because there's friendly fire and you have to calculate for enemy movement and the casting delay. Don't aim your fireball spell at the group of enemies your fighters are engaged with cuz anything in the spell radius will take damage, including your friends.

If you want to use a big spell like fireball, get your melee team to charge forward and engage as many enemies as possible, that should keep enemies from advancing too far. So by the time your fireball spell actually goes off, there'll still be enemies in the area.