Rogues: Is the Estoc worth 2 feats? (Martial and Exotic weapons)

[Arclyte]

what do you think? Stick with Rapier(1d8 dmg and 18-20 x2 crit) and save 2 feats or go for an Estoc(2d4 dmg and 18-20 x2 crit?

[Serrassi Effect]

Originally posted by a weird person:

Originally posted by Serrassi Effect:

two handed and can use weapon finess :)

this xDDD

and im not 100% certain, but doesnt it also get 18-20 x2 critical? Im pretty sure it was like that in D&D 3.5 and it was ridiculous.

[a weird person]

Originally posted by Kulin:

Originally posted by a weird person:

yes and?

Useless for many builts then. Since he seems to be going for one handed weapons i'd guess for his built, too.

idk man i dstroy everything with sneak/crit and elven keen+finesse

[a weird person]

Originally posted by Serrassi Effect:

Originally posted by a weird person:

this xDDD

and im not 100% certain, but doesnt it also get 18-20 x2 critical? Im pretty sure it was like that in D&D 3.5 and it was ridiculous.

and i use a keen version so even more crits on sneaks. what a lovely glass cannon with that broken sneka mechanic (doesnt need to actualyl go behind, making Mobility useless skill xD)

[svensson1066]

OK, you can take care of the feats issue with just one level of fighter.
Presuming that you want to run a [mostly] pure rogue, just one level of fighter grants you a ton of benefits. Consider the equivilent feats you'll have access to:
All Martial Weapons
All Armors
All Shields
Great Fortitude [the fighter lvl 1 saving throw bonus is +2 Fort -- always handy for a rogue]
and a Bonus Combat Feat for whatever Exotic you want to use.

In game terms, you'd start a Rogue and take Dodge as your lvl 1 feat. Then you do Thorn Ford /Svetlana's Ring and Ancient Tomb and that usually gets you to 2nd level. Take Fighter at 2 and pure Rogue thereafter. And don't forget that the in-game mechanic for sneak attacks is merely 'two or more attackers' rather than '180 degrees' as in tabletop.

I'm running a Fighter [Aldori] /Rogue build and doing a pretty good job as the 'off butcher' with Val and Amiri. At lvl 4 [Ftr 2 /R 2] I'm doing an attitional 1d6 sneak attack with every strike just by teaming up with Val.

[Kulin]

Originally posted by a weird person:

Originally posted by Kulin:

Useless for many builts then. Since he seems to be going for one handed weapons i'd guess for his built, too.

idk man i dstroy everything with sneak/crit and elven keen+finesse

Does also work very well with other weapons. Nok Nok is a damage monster with his kukris.

It's just a important bit of information to know before you chose it during character creation. For example the Magus or the Eldrich Scion can only use a single, one handed weapon. Some also take dual wield talents, which would be useless.

Not saying it isn't viable.

[SoupICan]

You can pick up a single feat "Combat Trick" -> "Exotic Weapon Proficiency" -> "Estoc" on a level 2 rogue. Alternatively, a level or 2 of fighter is good for the rogue since it also comes with the many proficiencies, a couple of feats and and a +1 to will save. However, you will lose some of those tastey end game rogue bonuses from the pure rogue builds, but maybe you'll go duelist. There's many possibilities and no wrong answers aside from trying to be a "Jack of all Trades" and spreading yourself over too many class types.

Keep in mind that the estoc is similiar to the bastard sword as it can be used 1 or 2 handed. I believe it also counts as a light weapon and benefits from feats like "Fencing Grace" (weap dmg calculated with Dex bonuses). Used with the off-hand empty gives it a +50% dmg modifier too as it's being used 2-handed. It seems to have a high potential for burst damage.

If you want some fun build ideas try Nerd Commando Game Studios channel on youtube. He posted breakdowns on multiple builds and is rather good at squeezing the numbers on a character sheet.

[khinra]

Im not sure what the idea behind the Estoc is compared to a rapier. You average damage is 1,5 higher but considering that A: It costs 1 or 2 feats and B: you probably end up doing somethin like +15 to +30 per hit on top of weapon damage, it doesnt really seem worth it.

[Super-XIX]

Unless you are using Power Attack, there is literally no reason waste two feats on using the Elven Curved Blade as a Rogue/Vivisectionist/whatever. You can't TWF with it, you don't get 1.5x Dex (though technically you can in PnP as a Rogue, but it doesn't appear to work in this game), and it's just a Rapier with a slightly higher damage dice (which is not important because you get most of your damage from static sources and Sneak Attack). The Estoc is much the same, it just has a higher damage dice, which is mostly irrelevant.

If you have Martial Weapon Proficiency, it MIGHT be worth a single feat, but definitely not two.

[Tanlaus]

Most of the damage a rogue does is sneak attack damage by a significant margin. If you want melee damage as a rogue just go knife master and stick to small weapons.

See just about any thread about Nok Nok to confirm this.

An estoc might be good for a dex based sword saint build or duelist but that’s sbout it.

[Astral Projection]

^ Yeah most of your damage is from Sneak Attack anyway so multiple feats for Estoc seems a waste.

If you are playing on Normal or above go Knife Master for more damage and invest in some defensive feats because you will get hit.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Astral Projection:

If you are playing on Normal or above go Knife Master for more damage and invest in some defensive feats because you will get hit.

Or go for 4th KM then vivisector. Because you know - magic is much better form of defense :)

And no, you will hit very rarely (minus dweomercat packs ofk) if control your rogue (hint - one of your ability is to disable AoO for victim of you sneak).

[Slap Happy Pappy]

base weapon types are largely irrelevant for rogues.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Slap Happy Pappy:

base weapon types are largely irrelevant for rogues.

No.

We still want as much crit as possible because of Outflank. It's less important for us, true, but still want.

While basic damage is irrelevant and here you're completely right.