Ranged Sneak Attack and flanking.

[Priestie]

Can someone please explain how flanking works with ranged weapons. Does it happen automatically if someone else is engaging the NPC, or is there a required feat?

[Randomz]

You cannot flank with ranged weapons, so the only time you would sneak attack with ranged weapons would be any time they are denied their dex to AC. Which would be if they are flatfooted most of the time, or if they are held/paralyzed. You must also be within thirty feet usually but I'm not sure if that feature was implemented.

EDIT: There is apparently a feat in PnP called ranged flank but it has some pretty hefty prerequisites and I am not sure if it's in Kingmaker.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/combat-feats/ranged-flank-combat/

[Sterno]

Can you explain what causes Octavia to do sneak attacks with acid orbs and other spells when targets are flanked but not flat-footed? That doesn’t seem to match what you said.

[Randomz]

Originally posted by Sterno:

Can you explain what causes Octavia to do sneak attacks with acid orbs and other spells when targets are flanked but not flat-footed? That doesn’t seem to match what you said.

Well if she goes before other people in combat they will have the flatfooted condition which would qualify her for sneak attacks. If the enemy is currently being flanked by two people already then they have the condition to be sneak attacked but you can't actually contribute to flanking with ranged attacks.

Edit: Mind you this is not what is intended in PnP ruleset. You're supposed to have to flank the target yourself. But it seems as if ranged attacks can do sneak attack damage if the target is being flanked by anyone.

"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. "

[palathas]

Originally posted by Sterno:

Can you explain what causes Octavia to do sneak attacks with acid orbs and other spells when targets are flanked but not flat-footed? That doesn’t seem to match what you said.

I'd like this answered as well. Right at the start, one of the assassins in that little library was shooting me with their bow while I was attacking his melee mate. Three bow attacks were Sneak Attacks. There's definitely something screwy going on with sneak attacks, it's not consistent either so I'm guessing it's going to be difficult to find.

With bows you need to be within 30 feet and the target needs to be denied their Dex bonus, i.e. paralysed, entangled, grappled, flat footed,etc. I think in this game it always applies when you aren't targeting the rogue. If you aren't targeting the rogue it's seems to mark you as "flanked".

[sindeoneq]

The rules of the game do seem to be a little different than the pnp on this. I speced my Octavia almost fully into rogue for her to focus on maxing ranged damage. The flasks and orbs seem to fall into the same catagory of ranged weapons as far as if bonuses apply. Through this if they are being flanked by your tanks will trigger off. The sneak attack bonuses especailly when focused on maxing them out and buying a bunch can make Octavia or any rogue you have a death machine against resistant or deadly enemies such as the Linnwurm. It is nice to remember as they will rip through difficult encoutners just keep a few on her for when it seems like things might go south.

[AbonZel]

The game just gave me "You can use ranged sneak attacks against flanked enemies" as a loading screen tip. It seems to me that as long as an enemy is flanked, a ranged sneak attack is possible. I would assume that the enemy would need two melee flankers, and the ranged attack doesn't count towards determining if someone is flanked or not, as that is how the tabletop game goes, as I remember.

[Randomz]

Originally posted by AbonZel:

The game just gave me "You can use ranged sneak attacks against flanked enemies" as a loading screen tip. It seems to me that as long as an enemy is flanked, a ranged sneak attack is possible. I would assume that the enemy would need two melee flankers, and the ranged attack doesn't count towards determining if someone is flanked or not, as that is how the tabletop game goes, as I remember.

Its not but I guess thats a new feature. Sucks that its so hard to tell whether or not an added feature is a bug or not.

[eRe4s3r]

The problem is that the game botched the range rule, flanking bonus can only be gained when 2 characters (including the attacking one) are within 5 ft of the enemy. Someone who is not in those 5ft does not qualify for a sneak attack. Only other way to qualify for it, is when attacking from stealth (and here attacking from range should not automatically break your stealth by the way)

Or basically, Octavia gaining sneak attack on touch attacks is according to rules. Bow users only when within 5 ft and considered in melee (they get a huge attack malus there though unless they have the 2 perks that remove it).

The other qualifier is flatfooted but
#
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the Initiative order), you are flat-footed.
#

Does not apply to any initiative action. So basically that archer should not get sneak attack if you attack first*

There is no such thing as a "ranged flank" in core pathfinder. At least last I checked that was some absurdly broken expansion module. Winds of.. something or another, that added this.

[WifflePossum]

I've been able to give Octavia sneak attack with her ranged spells in three ways.
1. When she attacks first in combat.
2. When she casts from invisible or is otherwise undetected.
3. She will qualify for Arcane Trickster if you level her properly. She will gain the Impromptu Sneak attack ability which allows her to treat a creature as flatfooted once per day. I prefer to take her up the chain with just levels of Wizard and give her the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to qualify for the class. The rest of the requirements are skill based.

[SpiralRazor]

Originally posted by Randomz:

You cannot flank with ranged weapons, so the only time you would sneak attack with ranged weapons would be any time they are denied their dex to AC. Which would be if they are flatfooted most of the time, or if they are held/paralyzed. You must also be within thirty feet usually but I'm not sure if that feature was implemented.

EDIT: There is apparently a feat in PnP called ranged flank but it has some pretty hefty prerequisites and I am not sure if it's in Kingmaker.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/combat-feats/ranged-flank-combat/

None of what you said is true in game.

Ever since ive gotten Octavia, and trained her rogue levels, as soon i get engage anything with Val, it then gets WRECKED by Octavia. Whatever that green line is going to is gonna die.

Not only is she getting sneak attacks, she's getting the flank bonus of +2 to hit. With rapid shot, point blank and precision, she makes my casters look stupid. Right after lvl 4 you can hit Olegs and they sell a +1 light flaming crossbow....by this time you can get 3d6 sneak attack damage on her, twice per round.

I dont even have to be within 30'. Simply one character engaging, and octavia also ranged attacking is enough to qualifiy for the flanked condition.


Yeah, its all kinds of messed up.

Btw, i recently started another play through of POE2, and in that game flanking is handled superbly...the game does a very good job on qualifying flanked status...theres even a pop up letting you know "Flanked" in floating combat text.

[Recrusive Thoughts]

It's simple, an enemy that has 2 or more targets attacking it in melee range is counted as flanked.
A target that is marked/counted as flanked, counts as flanked for everyone attacking it, regardless of method of attack or relative positions, angles or attack type. (you do not need to be behind it or 45 degree angle or any other requirement.) Flanking has its own set of modifyiers that apply too everyone attacking it. Sneak attacks have their own separate requirement.

In both PnP and Kingmaker, a flanked target can be the subject of sneak attacks, from any source, spell, ranged or melee, as long as the sneak attacker is within 30 feet of the target. No special feats or additional requirements necessary.

The part that seems to be confusing people is that ranged attackers do not count towards the flanking total. So for ranged attackers to get sneak, there must be 2 other attackers using melee on the target.

Exceptions exist in 3 circumstances.

1. Its the start of a new battle and the sneak attacker goes before the target in the iniative order. This only works in the first round. Uncanny Dodge feat/class feature will prevent this exception from working.
2. The target is unable to percieve the sneak attacker for some other reason, concealment, obscurement, invisibility, stealth, etc. Uncanny Dodge will also prevent this exception.
3. Some other event or effect, (web, hold person, paralysis etc) is causing the target of the sneak attack to lose their dexterity bonus, this flags the target as flat footed, thus enabling sneak attacks. Uncanny dodge does not prevent these types of exceptions.

Hope that helps, Good Luck and have fun.

[SpiralRazor]

Originally posted by howardwillard:

It's simple, an enemy that has 2 or more targets attacking it in melee range is counted as flanked.
A target that is marked/counted as flanked, counts as flanked for everyone attacking it, regardless of method of attack or relative positions, angles or attack type. (you do not need to be behind it or 45 degree angle or any other requirement.) Flanking has its own set of modifyiers that apply too everyone attacking it. Sneak attacks have their own separate requirement.

In both PnP and Kingmaker, a flanked target can be the subject of sneak attacks, from any source, spell, ranged or melee, as long as the sneak attacker is within 30 feet of the target. No special feats or additional requirements necessary.

The part that seems to be confusing people is that ranged attackers do not count towards the flanking total. So for ranged attackers to get sneak, there must be 2 other attackers using melee on the target.

Exceptions exist in 3 circumstances.

1. Its the start of a new battle and the sneak attacker goes before the target in the iniative order. This only works in the first round. Uncanny Dodge feat/class feature will prevent this exception from working.
2. The target is unable to percieve the sneak attacker for some other reason, concealment, obscurement, invisibility, stealth, etc. Uncanny Dodge will also prevent this exception.
3. Some other event or effect, (web, hold person, paralysis etc) is causing the target of the sneak attack to lose their dexterity bonus, this flags the target as flat footed, thus enabling sneak attacks. Uncanny dodge does not prevent these types of exceptions.

Hope that helps, Good Luck and have fun.

Again, this is not whats happening in game. Either on the NPCs side or yours.

[Xerxes1811]

Originally posted by howardwillard:

It's simple, an enemy that has 2 or more targets attacking it in melee range is counted as flanked.
A target that is marked/counted as flanked, counts as flanked for everyone attacking it, regardless of method of attack or relative positions, angles or attack type. (you do not need to be behind it or 45 degree angle or any other requirement.) Flanking has its own set of modifyiers that apply too everyone attacking it. Sneak attacks have their own separate requirement.

In both PnP and Kingmaker, a flanked target can be the subject of sneak attacks, from any source, spell, ranged or melee, as long as the sneak attacker is within 30 feet of the target. No special feats or additional requirements necessary.

The part that seems to be confusing people is that ranged attackers do not count towards the flanking total. So for ranged attackers to get sneak, there must be 2 other attackers using melee on the target.

Exceptions exist in 3 circumstances.

1. Its the start of a new battle and the sneak attacker goes before the target in the iniative order. This only works in the first round. Uncanny Dodge feat/class feature will prevent this exception from working.
2. The target is unable to percieve the sneak attacker for some other reason, concealment, obscurement, invisibility, stealth, etc. Uncanny Dodge will also prevent this exception.
3. Some other event or effect, (web, hold person, paralysis etc) is causing the target of the sneak attack to lose their dexterity bonus, this flags the target as flat footed, thus enabling sneak attacks. Uncanny dodge does not prevent these types of exceptions.

Hope that helps, Good Luck and have fun.

I think you’re correct, I get sneak attacks with my bow when I act sooner in the initiative order and catch someone flat footed, or when two of my melee fighters are engaged with the same target and I pop a shot in there. I have sneak attacked out of stealth also, but sometimes it doesn’t seem to work for some reason. I get sneak attacks also with my short sword if I attack a target one of my fighters is already engaged with. Pretty generous sneak attacks!

[The Silver Santana]

So, you can sneak attack when a target is flanked by any two other creatures, or you go first in initiative or the target is flat-footed by some other means (invisibility spells work).

The confusing parts are that enemies need not be flanked by the character-unlike in pathfinder rules normally excepting some feats-and characters start their move actions simultaneously, so the only way to tell if someone has had "their turn" yet is if your initiative number is reported as higher (or you shoot/attack before them).

[SpiralRazor]

Generous..yeah..until the invisible wererats pop up and unleash some surprise buttsecks on your party.