Sword Saint/Duelist

[Priestie]

Salutations, Im kinda new to pathfinder, but I thought it sounded pretty cool to go with a Sword Saint/Duelist build for my main character. One of my favorite advanced D&D classes was a Blade Dancer, and I was hoping to recreate the feel for it in this game.

So few questions if I could.

1) Is this combination possible.
2) Does it make sense, will it do what I think it does.
3) Any hints on how to unlock the combination early on (i.e. meet the pre-req)

Thanks for helping out a noob!

[Sardonac]

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Dueling Blades are inferior to Estocs and Scimitars for any Magus archtype because of the lower crit range. That said, they aren't explicitly bad, just suboptimal.

Duelist and Kensai both grant dodge bonus to AC from your intellect, which stack as you would expect. Generally from a power perspective this isn't really worthwhile though because of what you pay for in order to make it work:

1. The Int bonus to AC is limited to class level - if you want +5 to AC from +5 int bonus, you need at least 5 levels of kensai and duelist to get both
2. You pay a lot of feat tax to qualify for the class
3. If you take enough duelist levels to make the AC bonus from both worthwhile, your magus caster level and spells available will be no longer worthwhile

Essentially you'll be better off as a rogue/fighter->duelist or a straight Kensai.

Personally, if you want a kind of light armored duelist fighter style, consider the Eldritch Scoundrel rogue archtype. They're like a magus who trades spell combat for sneak attack, if you play an Elf (for +int +dex) then you can use Elven Curved Blades as a martial weapon, which could be a fun 2h dex build. Very 'duelist' flavor IMO, especially if you go for disarm or trip in combat.

Your main spells are Shocking Grasp and Haste, and both of these are available with many castings due to your high Int, even with only lvl 9 Magus. The feat tax is Dodge (autopick), weapon finesse (autopick) and combat mobility (decent), so not really taxing at all; there are enough feats to never be left wanting any others, especially if you roll Human.

Rogue/fighter -> duelist has very little synergy, they are only thematically aligned; fighter gives proficiency you won't use, and armour training you can't use, and then weapon training which is nice but not enough by itself, and slow to reach and grow at every 5th level? Rogue sneak attack won't grow with Magus or Duelist, plus BaB will be bad. Straight fighter is better at that point. Straight Kensai is okay, but your AC will be much lower.

Shocking grasp is your main spell in a situation where you have access to the intensify spell and magical lineage trait - neither are implemented here. Without the option to supercharge Shocking Grasp, that means you're relying on finding better spells to use like Vampiric Touch. My general opinion is that you pretty much have to stay pure to make Magus work well.

The rogue/fighter->duelist comment was more about meeting the OP's thematic requirement, if I really really wanted to do a duelist, it would probably lead off of Aldori Swordlord.

[Starcut]

Originally posted by kesat:

Originally posted by Cyrus:

Do Elves already get weapon focus for Elven Curve blade? For some reason it's not available, I thought Elves were natrually inclined toward using them.

Looks like if you go Eleven rogue you still have to get martial weapon proficiency before you can weapon focus for Elven Curve Blade.

Elven Curved Blade is a two handed weapon - not suitable at all for a Magus/Rogue. You need a free off-hand as a magus in order to cast spells.

I know, I was just asking kinda off topic based on a previous post build.

[kesat]

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Without the option to supercharge Shocking Grasp, that means you're relying on finding better spells to use like Vampiric Touch. My general opinion is that you pretty much have to stay pure to make Magus work well.

Actually you are enhancing your touch spells by being a rogue already as a Magus. Sneak Attacks are applied to Touch Spells too and get the same damage type as the spell itself.

I'm playing currently as a Sword Saint/Rogue - and it's damage is pretty nice.

Originally posted by Cyrus:

Originally posted by kesat:

Elven Curved Blade is a two handed weapon - not suitable at all for a Magus/Rogue. You need a free off-hand as a magus in order to cast spells.

I know, I was just asking kinda off topic based on a previous post build.

Ah ok... yeah in that case it was already answered. They don't have the focus, but it's easier to get the proficiency.

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Your main spells are Shocking Grasp and Haste, and both of these are available with many castings due to your high Int, even with only lvl 9 Magus. The feat tax is Dodge (autopick), weapon finesse (autopick) and combat mobility (decent), so not really taxing at all; there are enough feats to never be left wanting any others, especially if you roll Human.

Rogue/fighter -> duelist has very little synergy, they are only thematically aligned; fighter gives proficiency you won't use, and armour training you can't use, and then weapon training which is nice but not enough by itself, and slow to reach and grow at every 5th level? Rogue sneak attack won't grow with Magus or Duelist, plus BaB will be bad. Straight fighter is better at that point. Straight Kensai is okay, but your AC will be much lower.

Shocking grasp is your main spell in a situation where you have access to the intensify spell and magical lineage trait - neither are implemented here. Without the option to supercharge Shocking Grasp, that means you're relying on finding better spells to use like Vampiric Touch. My general opinion is that you pretty much have to stay pure to make Magus work well.

The rogue/fighter->duelist comment was more about meeting the OP's thematic requirement, if I really really wanted to do a duelist, it would probably lead off of Aldori Swordlord.

I agree your magic is less good, but Duelist does augment your normal attacks somewhat, and the main draw to the class combination is the 18AC from Int alone, that is just so much more than anyone else gets without even doing anything. The further AC buffs from Dex, feats, defensive stance, being a Duelist, and perhaps Wis if one also splashses Monk, just get into a range where you never get hit, even by the unfair mobs. It's not classic Magus, but it's powerful.

[Priestie]

Thank you everyone for great feedback! Especially Speedingdeath, thank you Sir. Last question the Estoc says it can be used one handed or two handed. How does that work with the sword saint's 'off hand' casting. Does it automatically count as 1hd, can you decide if you want to cast or do bonus damage? etc. Thank you!!!

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by Priestie:

Thank you everyone for great feedback! Especially Speedingdeath, thank you Sir. Last question the Estoc says it can be used one handed or two handed. How does that work with the sword saint's 'off hand' casting. Does it automatically count as 1hd, can you decide if you want to cast or do bonus damage? etc. Thank you!!!

What happens is, if you are using Strength as your stat for attack/damage, and have a free hand, you will add 1.5x str instead of 1x str. This is true for all weapons that can be used 1 or 2 handed. However, your Estoc will be using Dex, if you're going duelist, because weapon finesse is a class requirement, and you want high dex anyway. Dex doesn't add to weapon damage by default, but you can take Slashing Grace if you already have weapon finesse, which then allows you to add dex to damage, but only 1x, no 2h benefit. Still what you want though.

[Sardonac]

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Shocking grasp is your main spell in a situation where you have access to the intensify spell and magical lineage trait - neither are implemented here. Without the option to supercharge Shocking Grasp, that means you're relying on finding better spells to use like Vampiric Touch. My general opinion is that you pretty much have to stay pure to make Magus work well.

The rogue/fighter->duelist comment was more about meeting the OP's thematic requirement, if I really really wanted to do a duelist, it would probably lead off of Aldori Swordlord.

I agree your magic is less good, but Duelist does augment your normal attacks somewhat, and the main draw to the class combination is the 18AC from Int alone, that is just so much more than anyone else gets without even doing anything. The further AC buffs from Dex, feats, defensive stance, being a Duelist, and perhaps Wis if one also splashses Monk, just get into a range where you never get hit, even by the unfair mobs. It's not classic Magus, but it's powerful.

I applaud your ingenuity for making it work, I've just never been a fan of AC based builds in general. Between other options for avoiding damage (concealment from blur/displacement), DR (stoneskin) and the fact that "dead things can't hurt me", I just prefer offense over defense.

On an unrelated sidenote - if you want a thematic build that goes the opposite direction from you, try a straight Eldritch Scion archtype Magus with the Abyssal Bloodline, and stack strength and power attack. The +6 from the bloodline +enlarge person +level boosts +gear means you can easily boost strength to 38 or more. It was the easiest way for me to make up for the diminished nova-strike ability of the Magus without Intensify Spell.

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

I agree your magic is less good, but Duelist does augment your normal attacks somewhat, and the main draw to the class combination is the 18AC from Int alone, that is just so much more than anyone else gets without even doing anything. The further AC buffs from Dex, feats, defensive stance, being a Duelist, and perhaps Wis if one also splashses Monk, just get into a range where you never get hit, even by the unfair mobs. It's not classic Magus, but it's powerful.

I applaud your ingenuity for making it work, I've just never been a fan of AC based builds in general. Between other options for avoiding damage (concealment from blur/displacement), DR (stoneskin) and the fact that "dead things can't hurt me", I just prefer offense over defense.

On an unrelated sidenote - if you want a thematic build that goes the opposite direction from you, try a straight Eldritch Scion archtype Magus with the Abyssal Bloodline, and stack strength and power attack. The +6 from the bloodline +enlarge person +level boosts +gear means you can easily boost strength to 38 or more. It was the easiest way for me to make up for the diminished nova-strike ability of the Magus without Intensify Spell.

Sounds very cool!

[kesat]

Originally posted by Priestie:

Thank you everyone for great feedback! Especially Speedingdeath, thank you Sir. Last question the Estoc says it can be used one handed or two handed. How does that work with the sword saint's 'off hand' casting. Does it automatically count as 1hd, can you decide if you want to cast or do bonus damage? etc. Thank you!!!

Should be the same as every other 1handed weapon: If you have a free off-hand, then you get 1.5x STR bonus applied (if you turn off spell combat).
Which isn't important as Sword Saint, because you a usually focused on a finesse build, esp. if you plan to go for rogue multiclass. And there is no such bonus for a finesse build using 1handed weapons without an off-hand item.

[Priestie]

Speedingdeath, I was looking at the Scaled Fist and I think its a great idea to throw in two levels of that mostly because I want to have decent char anyways for RP. Quick question if I'm using the Estoc one handed, does that mean I have a freehand to do some of the unarmed monk strikes as well? Also, are there any 'monk weapons' that might work instead of the estoc so that I could throw in some flurry of blows too?

[Grymm]

Deulling Sword isn't bad, and if you have the feats to burn you can take a Defense style that is unique to that weapon for a bit of AC. It's not 'maxed' out for Damage, but if you're trying to build a defense character then that does help a bit. Halflings also have a bit of AC, racial and a Unique Feat, if you're going that direction.

Defense builds like this often go with Improved Unarm (Pre req), Crane Style (Better ac when fighting Defensively), Crane Riposte (4 AC, if those 4 make someone miss you, you counter attack, and lose the Ac bonus for the round).

Mixing some Fighter (Aldori Defender) with Magus (Sword) gets you some fighter bonus feat, and some +AC class features also. Duellist feels like a lot of overlap and the +AC Int (Canny Defense) shouldn't stack as it is also Canny Defense.

WIth no Intensify Magic, you lose a lot of the table top DPS, you'll do much more damage in the game if you pick up some Rogue (or Alc / Vivisectionist). Sneak Attack damage can be applied to each attack and touch spell. Game considers target flanked if you have more than 1 character attacking in melee (Range gets flank if 1 person attacks the target). Rogue also gets free Finnesse (Dex to hit with light melee weapons, including Dueling Sword) and a Dex to Damage (instead of Str) at pretty early levels.

You could also consider Arcane Trickster as a Prestige, requires a quick dip into Rog, enough to get the stuff mentioned above (3? levels), AT gives you more sneak attack, and increases your caster level. I'd have to double check but the basics for this type of build would be Sword Saint (til 2nd level spells), Rogue at least 1 (costs a feat to get a second Sneak attack dice, you are better off going to 3 or 4, some better options, and helps BAB more)

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by Priestie:

Speedingdeath, I was looking at the Scaled Fist and I think its a great idea to throw in two levels of that mostly because I want to have decent char anyways for RP. Quick question if I'm using the Estoc one handed, does that mean I have a freehand to do some of the unarmed monk strikes as well? Also, are there any 'monk weapons' that might work instead of the estoc so that I could throw in some flurry of blows too?

That's interesting, I haven't tested it though. The issue is that there is no Monk weapon with 18 crit threat, which is quite important with Magus spell crit feature.

[Sardonac]

Originally posted by Grymm:

Mixing some Fighter (Aldori Defender) with Magus (Sword) gets you some fighter bonus feat, and some +AC class features also. Duellist feels like a lot of overlap and the +AC Int (Canny Defense) shouldn't stack as it is also Canny Defense.

Be aware that it does stack in this game's implementation, just FYI.

[Caelinus]

Dualing Blades are finessable and can have slashing grace. So if you get both of those feats you get a full size sword with dex to hit and damage. That is their main advantage.

They are absolutely ideal if you want to make a dex based fighter/magus/whatever.

[Moon Presence]

Originally posted by kesat:

Originally posted by Cyrus:

Do Elves already get weapon focus for Elven Curve blade? For some reason it's not available, I thought Elves were natrually inclined toward using them.

Looks like if you go Eleven rogue you still have to get martial weapon proficiency before you can weapon focus for Elven Curve Blade.

Elven Curved Blade is a two handed weapon - not suitable at all for a Magus/Rogue. You need a free off-hand as a magus in order to cast spells.

You know literally nothing.
https://imgur.com/5MMu12R

Rogue 3 / Sword Saint 7 / Duelist 10 is one of the strongest possible builds in the game. This is at lvl 7, with a SINGLE shocking grasp spellstrike using an Elven Curved Blade dealing over 130 damage. It absolutely does work, and the sneak attack damage is added to BOTH your spell damage and attack damage for this spellstrike.

Character is currently Rogue 3 / SS 4