Alchemist Chirurgeon doesnt make any sense?

[RaPriest]

TL\DR:

Chirurgeon archetype simply doesn't work, if you choose it - you will gimp your character beyond salvation.
Things like this - reason why there should be possibility to respec.

Long version:

I have made Chirurgeon as my custom mercenary and aimed to use him as healer-supporter, which is Chirurgeon's focus according to description.

But after playing some hours, receiving couple levels, and reading Pathfinder TableTop rules - I understand now that I made big mistake.
In Pathfinder: Kingmaker Chirurgeon implementation is so wrong, so against the TT rules, that it is no supportive archetype, as it should be, no, Chirurgeon is simply a castrated version of normal Alchemist.

Reasons:

Lets take a look at Chirurgeon's unique class abilities:
Infused curative (received on 2nd level):

"At 2nd level, a Chirurgeon's extracts of of remove disease, remove blindness, neutralize poison, and cure spells automatically act as infusions and can be used not only in himself but on other people as well"

Lets clear one thing: by default Alchemist can use their spells only on themselves, even healing ones. With "Infused curative" Chirurgeon can cast healing spells on other characters.
Sound good, right?

BUT.
On 2nd, 4th, 6th and so on, levels Chirurgeon can choose "Discoveries" - Alchemist unique abilities, which boost themselves and their bombs.
And there is "Infusion" discovery, that allows Alchemist to cast ANY spell on other characters, not only healing ones.
You see,with "Infused curative" only healing spells, with "Infusion" discovery ANY spell.

So "Infused curative" is nothing more than limited version of "Infusion" discovery.

As supportive character Chirurgeon need to apply not only heals, but buffs as well.
So Chirurgeon anyway HAVE TO take "Infusion" discovery, that completly replace "Infused curative" .
That means that "Infused curative" - is absolutely USELESS. It has no function at all.

But wait! Maybe this is a flaw of original Pathfinder TableTop system?!

Lets see how its done there.
"Infused curative" https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo-alchemist-archetypes/chirurgeon/

"Infused Curative
At 2nd level, a Chirurgeon’s extracts of cure spells automatically act as infusions, and can be used by non-alchemists. When a Chirurgeon prepares his extracts, he may choose to render any or all of his infused curatives inert and prepare other extracts to replace them (unlike infusions, which continue to occupy the alchemist’s daily extract slots until consumed or used).
This ability replaces poison use."

Well, this is not the clearest description in the world, but this is how its works by original rules:

Chirurgeon can fill all his slots with curative spells, and, if its necessary, can change them to any other spell during the day, without need to rest.
Remember how cleric can transform any spell to "cure wounds" on the fly? It is the same thing, only reversed, any cure spell can be transformed to any other spell.

Cool, is'n it? "Infusion" discovery and "Infused curative" do not replace each other and works fine together. This is how it should be done.
Yet Owlcat failed to implement "Infused curative" correctly, and made this fundamental Chirurgeon's ability absolutely meaningless.

But! Maybe other Chirurgeon's abilities compensate this failure?

Second ability - "Skill Focus - Lore (Religion)".
It gives +3(+6) on Lore (Religion) skill-check.
This skill is based on Wisdom. Main stat for Chirurgeon - Intelligence.
So second Chirurgeon's ability gives small bonus for skill that Chirurgeon will never be good at anyway. Even more useless than "Infused curative".

Third ability gives "Breath of life" as 4th level spell - basically a bit improved version of "Cure critical wounds" - meh.
To comparison: Alchemist as 3rd ability receives poison immunity. Grenadier starts to stun enemies by bombs for 1d4+1 rounds with crit. Vivisector gain advanced rogue talent. Chirurgeon is worst again.

So by choosing Chirurgeon you will lose Alchemist class abilities, and will receive nothing.

Nicely done!

[Kommissar K]

You're misreading the TT rules on rendering infusions intert.

The problem with Infusion, is that the spells remain active until spent. So an Alchemist that has prepares their spells as infusions, and then has them confiscated, is true and blue screwed, as those spell slots remain active forever.

That Chirugen rule allows them to prepare those set spells as infusions, and not be at risk of basically losing their character in the event of capture. It should not be compared to spontaneous conversion.

Its more that in the PC game, alchemists are not at risk of having their infusions confiscated, so that entire langauge of the TT rules has no place here.

Its also worth noting, you've -only- given up Poison Use/Resistence. Its not like this is a different class.

Skill Focus(Religion) is likely more an indicator that the Heal skill has been subsumed by Knowledge(Religion) in this game, and so indicates the character can make those narrative checks just as well.

You are aware that Breath of Life is a resurrect spell, right? With no material cost. Its not normally on their spell list, and normally its a 5th level spell.

[RaPriest]

Originally posted by Kommissar Klose:

You're misreading the TT rules on rendering infusions intert.

I have digged innternet on this matter.
Consensus is:
"Infused curative" should work as spontaneous transformation.
Even Infused extracts remains active only 24 hours.

If there is official explanation, that says that "Infused cureative" should work as you described - please share.

[raubrey]

Originally posted by Kommissar Klose:

Its more that in the PC game, alchemists are not at risk of having their infusions confiscated, so that entire langauge of the TT rules has no place here.

If there were only more players like you that know of the PnP rules and are able to explain why they don't belong in a vidya game.

[xkuripuri]

Originally posted by RaPriest:

Originally posted by Kommissar Klose:

You're misreading the TT rules on rendering infusions intert.

I have digged innternet on this matter.
Consensus is:
"Infused curative" should work as spontaneous transformation.
Even Infused extracts remains active only 24 hours.

If there is official explanation, that says that "Infused cureative" should work as you described - please share.

Unless that's from the mouth of Paizo, that's what is called a "house rule", which means it isn't neccessarily how the rule is meant to be interperted.

Sort of like how everyone on the internet thinks rolling a nat20 on a skill check is an auto success, when it isn't...

[RaPriest]

Originally posted by xkuripuri:

Unless that's from the mouth of Paizo, that's what is called a "house rule", which means it isn't neccessarily how the rule is meant to be interperted.

Sort of like how everyone on the internet thinks rolling a nat20 on a skill check is an auto success, when it isn't...

Anyway, even if it is common misinterpretation, it doesn change fact, that in Pathfinder: Kingmaker Chirurgeon archetype suck hard, and its better to avoid it.

[Kommissar K]

The key is you should not assume you -have- to take Infusion. Yes, you want to be suppport/buffing. OK, then get it. But understand you aren't as limited as that.

You actually have the option to not do it, and can explore other Discoveries.

As well, note the edit made to my first post WRT Breath of Life, because I think you're missing some key benefits of getting it.

Skill Focus Religion is the same thing as Skill Focus Heal for this game. There isn't a Heal skill in this, so you ought to be putting ranks in Religion to handle the "my character knows healing" stuff for any relevant skill checks. Plus now it also covers a wide array of other things.

And all you're giving up is Poison Use/Resistance/Immunity, which, while pretty good, aren't so absolutely necessary/useful that you can't justify it.

[RaPriest]

Originally posted by Kommissar Klose:

The key is you should not assume you -have- to take Infusion. Yes, you want to be suppport/buffing. OK, then get it. But understand you aren't as limited as that.

You actually have the option to not do it, and can explore other Discoveries.

Lets see, there is little sense to play as Alchemist and dont take "Precise bomb" (in this game, i mean). Grenadier have this discovery for free, and can take "Infusion" instead.
To be as good at healing/buffing and to be able actually use bombs - Chirurgeon need to waste 2 discoveries.

Of course, you can ignore "Infusion", then your supportive architype would be worse at supporting than offensive architype.
Then what's a point of Chirurgeon?
"Breath of life" resurrection ability?
But it has strict timeframe to use - 1 round since death. And I highly doubt that I will use it even once to resurrect someone.

There would be much more sense, if Chirurgeon got "Infusion" for free, instead of "Infused curative". Since original mechanic of "Infused curative" (as you explained it) cannot be implemented in PC game.

[Kommissar K]

I haven't played an alchemist in this game, so I don't know how this plays out, but can you give an infusion to an ally as a sort of item? Because otherwise it would seem you're having to run around and apply these infusions as actions, which is just a pain.

And that item can then be used as potion that is cast at your full caster level? (note that potions by default only work at minimum caster level)

As well, you can give infusions of Breath of life to your allies, who can be far more spread out and remotely be able to apply it, rather than just your one character?

[RaPriest]

Originally posted by Kommissar Klose:

I haven't played an alchemist in this game, so I don't know how this plays out, but can you give an infusion to an ally as a sort of item? Because otherwise it would seem you're having to run around and apply these infusions as actions, which is just a pain.

And that item can then be used as potion that is cast at your full caster level? (note that potions by default only work at minimum caster level)

As well, you can give infusions of Breath of life to your allies, who can be far more spread out and remotely be able to apply it, rather than just your one character?

Infusion work exactly as spells, so you cannot give them to anybody.
And you cannot throw bombs at ground, only directly in enemy, this is why "Precise bomb" is must have.

[Kommissar K]

Originally posted by RaPriest:

Infusion work exactly as spells, so you cannot give them to anybody.
And you cannot to throw bombs at ground, only in directly in enemy, so "Precise bomb" is must have.

Well there's your problem, they've made Infusion useless generally. You need to be able to give those Infusions to other characters for them to use in order for it to be worth anything. Otherwise you have to be running up to them and doing a Full Round Action in order to feed them an extract.

Normally an Alchemist with Infusion is either casting infusions during narrative time, or has given them out for structured time. You ideally don't run up to people and feed them Infusions.

Or can you also cast Infusions at range?

Chirugen works as it allows you to heal, without having to waste a perfectly good discovery on Infusion.

On bombs aimed at the ground, you're still better hitting the enemy as the damage is significantly better. What you want are selective bombs that don't hit allies.

[Ghost]

Dr. RaPriest to chirurgey, paging Dr. RaPriest

[Belle's End]

Chirurgeon is BY FAR the best Alchemist subclass. I am willing to accept Grenadier as equal aswell if anyone want to argue.

[Rex is back, baby!]

this is a three year old thread, nobody wants to argue :b.

If anything, I'm so annoyed at alchemist, because it's like one of those clickbait titles "dip 2 levels into alchemist to min/max your character!"

If I see another person recommend alchemist or scaled fist monk dips, *takes a deep huff*

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Belle's End:

Chirurgeon is BY FAR the best Alchemist subclass.

I don't know why you'd want to necro this thread to make that argument, but... why do you think Chirurgeon is the best Alchemist archetype?

[Blackadder83]

Originally posted by xəʁ:

this is a three year old thread, nobody wants to argue :b.

If anything, I'm so annoyed at alchemist, because it's like one of those clickbait titles "dip 2 levels into alchemist to min/max your character!"

If I see another person recommend alchemist or scaled fist monk dips, *takes a deep huff*

What would be your 1-2 lvl dips recommendations?