Most powerful classes -> Archetypes in the game?

[space is cool]

^

[Hazmy]

Originally posted by MightyMickey88:

Originally posted by Creamy:

that's a sick build Mickey

Thanks! I had a similar build in Table Top Pathfinder but used primarily the Swashbuckler. It becomes unstoppable at later levels. The early levels were a bit rough. I went lvl 3 Rogue for Dex to damage, then 2 paladin, then 1 rogue for debilitating, then fighter 5 followed by remaining rogue.

Race was Aasimar Muse Touched due to the best stat distrubution and at level 10 you can get an Aasimar only feat that gives +3 melee AC.

Originally posted by Ekko:

How well would do this do in unfair difficulty?

I am playing on normal. But have no doubts this will be powerful in unfair. Infact it should be better considering your AC and Attack penalty scaling will be so much that in normal after you penalites the enemy will need a 20 to hit youl. In unfair, since they will have a higher bonus, you still will be able to reach only a 20 to hit you but won't be losing out on the extra - attack / AC that you are on normal.

Also, regardless of your build remember to only focus on these magic items:

Weapon/ Armor of + X over equivalent abilities. DPR wise +X trumps +1d6 elemental.

Belt of +X to your prime damaging stat (For longbow archers I use ability increases due to character level on DEX, Belts fo STR for added damage)

Headband of +X to your secondary stat (So for my build +CHA)

Rings of Protection +X

Amulet of Natural Armor +X

Cloaks of Protection + X (bonus to saves is better than all cloaks)

These are known as "The big six" in table top Pathfinder. Nothing should trump them unless they provide a higher bonus.

Your build is very similar to what I thought I want to start my playthrough with.

What are your starting attributes if I may ask? I am still new to pnp games and there is so much to learn, I have trouble especially properly allocating attributes!

Thanks!

[Garsgar]

In my short experience up to lvl 4, I would say druid. My Smilodon pet simply mows down things given a little bit of buffs, my druid is on backline control, he has long duration buffs, good CC, healing and damage spells. And I haven't even gotten to many of the good spells yet!

[MightyMickey88]

Originally posted by Hazmy:

Your build is very similar to what I thought I want to start my playthrough with.

What are your starting attributes if I may ask? I am still new to pnp games and there is so much to learn, I have trouble especially properly allocating attributes!

Thanks!

STR: 13 (needed for power attack)
DEX: 18 (you will be dex to damage)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA:16 (for saves/persuasion)

Main skills were Trickery, Perception, and Persuasion with plenty of skill points for others. I skipped stealth because didn't seem Paladin like.

This is for a sword and board. I'm not sure if it's better but if you want to sacrifice a decent amount of AC and some of your finesse abilities, you could instead swap STR and DEX and pick a different race of Aasimar. That way you can gain intimidating prowess (STR and CHA to Persuasion) and focus on Two-Handed weapons for more damage. I may try this my next playthrough but the premise of the intial build was to make someone who was extrememly tanky (high AC and saves) in addition to dealing decent damage (thru weapon spec/training/power attack/sneak attack).

[saice]

Ive restarted a few times aready (what can I say I'm a bit of an alt addtct) As pointed out above. Casters types do get really powreful. They tend to start out weak and will feel clunky but as you level they get really good. The down side is unless you pause after every turn and micro manage your whole party you lose a lot of there effetiveness. Spell placement is key. Also resting you really need to build a party around their roles in camping becusae with a full caster you will need to do this a lot. So someone with high nature for hunting so you dont use up a lot of rasions and atleast 2 people with high precption for gaurd duty and one really good stealther to hide the camp so your not interupted all the time.

In my mutlitple restarts I do have to say two classes stand out to me as being really good with not a huge need to micro manage. Rouges and Alchemists. Rouges do a lot of damage and if you buddy them up with a tank will get a lot of sneak attack damage. There is a good amount of trapped and locked things and while you get NPCs who can do that your main is always there for you. (pick up fast stleath and live in stealth mode) Now the Alchemist is good becuase hes is this weird hybrid caster. Frist he does not get spell failure with armors so how every tanky you want him you can do that. Bombs are super good even later on if you spec into them. (just take the feat asap that removes freidnly fire damage from them) and they can ploymore and self buff so you can play them ranges or melee or a mix fiarly easy. And they get access to tricky so can fill the trap/lock roll if you like.

[Reytron]

Originally posted by Lettus:

1.) Rogues
2.) Sorcerers (Dragon Disciple is kind of OP if done right, 10 Sorc/10 DD OP, forget what you heard))
3.) Wizards
4.) Druids
5.) Paladins
6.) Cleric
7.) Barbarians
8.) Alchemist
9.) Inquisitor
10.) Fighters
11.) Magus
12.) Bard
13.) Monk (If he can't make a full attack flurry of blows then his appeal wanes)

So how would you build such Dragon Disciple?

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by Lettus:

1.) Rogues
2.) Sorcerers (Dragon Disciple is kind of OP if done right, 10 Sorc/10 DD OP, forget what you heard))
3.) Wizards
4.) Druids
5.) Paladins
6.) Cleric
7.) Barbarians
8.) Alchemist
9.) Inquisitor
10.) Fighters
11.) Magus
12.) Bard
13.) Monk (If he can't make a full attack flurry of blows then his appeal wanes)

What fighter are you talking about? cause barb got nothing on 2 handed fighter.

20 str gives us +5, so +10 dmg and you can probably get higher, around 26-28
another +5 dmg from perks
specialization and greater specialization +4
power attack +10, x2 for twohanded so +20
finally autoncofirm crits and +1 to crit multiplier
Throw it on falchion, elven curve blade or fauchard and watch hilary ensue as you start cleaving through entire groups
+39 damage with 30% crit chance for x3 damage on 4 attacks per turn + cleaves.

hell even paladin is silly with its +20 from smite evil.

[Hazmy]

Originally posted by MightyMickey88:

Originally posted by Hazmy:

Your build is very similar to what I thought I want to start my playthrough with.

What are your starting attributes if I may ask? I am still new to pnp games and there is so much to learn, I have trouble especially properly allocating attributes!

Thanks!

STR: 13 (needed for power attack)
DEX: 18 (you will be dex to damage)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA:16 (for saves/persuasion)

Main skills were Trickery, Perception, and Persuasion with plenty of skill points for others. I skipped stealth because didn't seem Paladin like.

This is for a sword and board. I'm not sure if it's better but if you want to sacrifice a decent amount of AC and some of your finesse abilities, you could instead swap STR and DEX and pick a different race of Aasimar. That way you can gain intimidating prowess (STR and CHA to Persuasion) and focus on Two-Handed weapons for more damage. I may try this my next playthrough but the premise of the intial build was to make someone who was extrememly tanky (high AC and saves) in addition to dealing decent damage (thru weapon spec/training/power attack/sneak attack).

Thank you! As a last question can you also tell your feats? I am very interested to try this out.

[Space]

Originally posted by rrichard2:

^

- Arcane trickster due to how easy sneak attacks are
- Alchemist//bomber
- Tank done right using team feats like trip and extra sneak damage / hit chance.
- Sorc / Dragon disciple.

There's others.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Zarquon:

Negative energy Cleric is crazy powerful. Max wisdom and charisma (assimir race can get +2 to both). Get feat for extra channels. Then spam channel negative energy and it will kill everything in short order. There is a hat for + 2D6 on the channel's damage roll too.

That's a tempting suggestion, certainly. One advantage Negative Channel has is that with Selective Channel you can safely nuke without friendly fire concerns.

However, there are powerful arcane spells which are just as selective, such as Chain Lightning.

At level 20 the cleric's channel is at most 12d6 damage (10d6 +2d6 hat) = 42 average, and the hat occupies the head slot, so no Circlet of Charisma for you. Assuming 20 Cha, the cleric will be able to channel 8 times per day. He can also take Extra Channel feats, but since he doesn't get any extra feats and already has to spend one on Selective Channeling, he can't spare too many. Let's say 6 Extra Channels, which means a total of 20 channels per day. His total damage output from channeling would thus be around 840, not counting saves.

At the same level 20, a Draconic Sorcerer casts Chain Lightning at 20d6 +20 = 90 average * 8 times per day. He can also cast Empowered Chain Lightning ~120 average * 8 times per day and Maximized Chain Lightning = 150 average * 7 times per day. The Sorc's damage output only
from Chain Lightnings would thus be over 2700, or 3,5 times higher than the cleric's.

Moreover, Sorcerer also gets Spell focus, Greater SF, Elemental SF, Greater ECF for a total +4 DC, something a cleric can't get for his channel. The Sorc's spells will thus be more difficult to save against (and he will still have spare feats for Spell Penetration).

Furthermore, a cleric who favors Charisma is even more MAD than a normal cleric: he would have to split his stats between Charisma, Wisdom, and Strength, as well as maintain a decent Con and Dex. The Sorcerer only needs to max 2 stats (Cha and Dex), and can safely dump Int and Str.

Taking this into consideration, the sorcerer's damage potential is much higher than a negative channeling cleric.

The channeler does shine at early levels, though. Arcane casters have nothing comparable to negative channel at that point.

You could try playing an Ecclesitheurge and taking Air domain to cast Chain Lightning from regular spell slots. However, Ecclesitheurge cannot cast in armor, so loses out one of the big benefits of being a cleric. He also gets less spells per day than a Sorcerer, and no Bloodline. You could go Bronze/Blue Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer 1/Ecclesitheurge 19, but then you'd be getting even less spells per day, and I'm not sure the bloodline passive would apply to divine spells.

There's also the fact that only a couple of deities in the game have air domain, and none of them are evil, which basically locks you into a neutral alignment (the most boring of all alignments) if you want both air domain and negative channeling.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Originally posted by rrichard2:

^

Wizard/Sorc and Cleric... both are top teir and i'd probably argue cleric is stronger in many ways do to heavy armor and still being able to sling some potent spells.

Edit: to be clear a well played battle cleric can melee as good as a fighter, and still lay impressive raw damage down, and cast insta kill spells... they are the most verstile class but they start out kinda slow and don't ramp up till much later.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Lettus:

1.) Rogues
2.) Sorcerers (Dragon Disciple is kind of OP if done right, 10 Sorc/10 DD OP, forget what you heard))

Dragon Disciple is a trap. First, you lose out three spellcasting levels, which means no 9th level spells for a Sorc, and all around less spells at lower levels. Second, you lose bloodline bonuses. In exchange, you get a few bonuses to dump stats (STR and INT for a Sorcerer? You serious?) and some natural armor increase (if you get hit by melee as a Sorc, you're doing it wrong).

You also need to sink skill ranks into Knowledge(Arcana), which means either not dumping INT (which gimps your DEX and CHA), playing a Human (which costs you +2 DEX from Aasimar), or gimping your only relevant skill (Persuasion) by 5 ranks.

DD is a gish PrC. Compared to straight Sorc, it's a power loss.


I also wouldn't agree that Rogues are top over Sorcerers. At early levels, sure, and maybe even midgame, but once Sorcs start to get Empowered/Maximised Fireballs or Chain Lightning, their dps rapidly outstrips Rogues imo. Of course, martial classes still have the benefit of going longer without rest.

[space is cool]

Originally posted by Ocean Man:

Cleric is quite simply incredible. Cleric, druid, and wizard are the strongest classes, probably in that order.

Which cleric class is the best? cleric/crusader/herald caller/etc?

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Lettus:

1.) Rogues
2.) Sorcerers (Dragon Disciple is kind of OP if done right, 10 Sorc/10 DD OP, forget what you heard))

Dragon Disciple is a trap. First, you lose out three spellcasting levels, which means no 9th level spells for a Sorc, and all around less spells at lower levels. Second, you lose bloodline bonuses. In exchange, you get a few bonuses to dump stats (STR and INT for a Sorcerer? You serious?) and some natural armor increase (if you get hit by melee as a Sorc, you're doing it wrong).

You also need to sink skill ranks into Knowledge(Arcana), which means either not dumping INT (which gimps your DEX and CHA), playing a Human (which costs you +2 DEX from Aasimar), or gimping your only relevant skill (Persuasion) by 5 ranks.

DD is a gish PrC. Compared to straight Sorc, it's a power loss.


I also wouldn't agree that Rogues are top over Sorcerers. At early levels, sure, and maybe even midgame, but once Sorcs start to get Empowered/Maximised Fireballs or Chain Lightning, their dps rapidly outstrips Rogues imo. Of course, martial classes still have the benefit of going longer without rest.

Dragon Disciples are totally emant to be played with a melee character. All those stat boosts get applied when you polymorph as well.

It's a really hard class to play though, compared to Wizard who can just destroy the world.

[space is cool]

Conjuration with a wizard how does it work? As I level up is he able to summon more creatures?

[dudex]

my favorite so far on hard difficulty is (tho i havent completed the game)

knife master/fighter Kukri dw dex

get to level 3 on rogue to get dex to damage and switch to fighter rest of the way.

u get the advantage of sneak attack early game and massive crit damage from high attack/damage bonuses from fighter mid to late game.

at level 20 u will have 7 hits per turn unbuffed with 3d8 sneak damage, 10 damage from piranha strike, 7 from dex, 8 from specialization/training with 30% crit chance.

also get 19 bab with +5 attack from fighter feats so ur attack chance is +9 over a pure rogue.

also very hard to hit with the high dex and some defensive talents.