Rogue to Duelist?

[connelld1965]

I want to migrate my rogue to a Duelist asap.

St, 15, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis, 12 Cha 12

Need Mobility 2(done), Dodge(done), Weapon Finess (done), Combat Mobility(done), Base Attack Bonus 6.

I am curious if someone has made the jump from Rogue to Duelist and how they did it?

Also, how do you increase base attack bonus? I was also wondering if going with Strength is worth it for a rogue because the Weapon Finess feat lets you use your dex bonus on attack roles?

Thanks in advance!

[connelld1965]

Anyone?

[Tommy]

Going for strength is not worth it, with "Weapon Finesse" you can use your dex for attack rolls and with "Fencing Grace" (or "Slashing Grace" or "Finesse Training") you can use your dex also for damage. With "Piranha Strike" you also have a dex version of "Power Attack" available.

[connelld1965]

Originally posted by Tommy:

Going for strength is not worth it, with "Weapon Finesse" you can use your dex for attack rolls and with "Fencing Grace" (or "Slashing Grace" or "Finesse Training") you can use your dex also for damage. With "Piranha Strike" you also have a dex version of "Power Attack" available.

Thanks, I need to switch my stats around!

[Darkfireslide]

Base Attack Bonus progresses based on class.
Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Monks, and Paladins get +1 each level.
Rogues, Druids, Clerics, Magus, Inquisitor, and Alchemist get BAB equal to 3/4 their class level.
Sorcerers and Wizards have BAB equal to 1/2 their level.

I don't think Duelist is a very good class, but with Slashing Grace/Fencing Grace, you can make it work. Here's my recommendation.

Play an Elf Rogue or Fighter (Aldori Defender archetype specifically) as an Elf or Human, and start with the following stats:
Elf: 12 Str, 20 Dex, Con 12, 16 Int, Wis 10, Cha 7.
Human: 12 Str, 20 Dex, Con 14, 14 Int, 10 Wis, Cha 7.

Int is necessary for abilities the Duelist gets, namely an AC bonus. Only boost your Dexterity from here on.
Taking Rogue first will give you more damage but Fighter (Aldori Defender) will make you be better at physical combat and give you proficiency with the dueling sword to start with. You'll need to take Weapon Finesse at 1st level as a Fighter, but Rogue gets it for free. By the time you reach Duelist, you should be about 7th level with 4 levels of Fighter and 3 of Rogue (for the Base Attack Bonus requirements). This will have you at a solid attack bonus with good damage if you took Slashing Grace immediately for the Dueling Sword, while also giving you some extra feats thanks to Fighter, and if you're a Human the extra feat goes a long way here. Your AC should be pretty solid thanks to high Dex and good feat selection and you can still wear Studded Leather Armor for a while, although you can't use a shield without losing attack bonus because of Weapon Finesse.

Starting with the 4 levels of Fighter (Aldori Defender) first, here's what your feat progression should look like (will change slightly depending on race):
1st level: Fighter
*FREE* Exotic Proficiency, Dueling Sword.
Weapon Finesse.
*BONUS* Weapon Focus: Dueling Sword.
*HUMAN* Slashing Grace (Push feats up one level if Elf; this feat is necessary almost immediately).

2nd level: Fighter
Dodge.

3rd level: Fighter
Piranha Strike.
Class feature: Defensive Parry gives a +1 to AC from melee.

4th level: Fighter
Weapon Specialization: Dueling Sword.

5th level: Rogue
Improved Initiative (go first in combat more) or Toughness (+1 HP per level). You may get a free feat since you will already have Weapon Finesse, which Rogue gives for free; in this case take both. If you're an Elf you'll have to sacrifice one of these feats to get Combat Mobility by 7th level.

6th level: Rogue
*ROGUE TALENT COMBAT FEAT* Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

7th level: Rogue
Combat Mobility.
You lose out on the Rogue's natural bonus to adding Dexterity to damage since you'll have taken Slashing Grace, but it's better this way because you get to use the Dueling Sword instead of being stuck using this ability with a Rapier, so it's not so bad. Pick something like

8-18th: Duelist.

From there the feat selection is up to you. Feats like Combat Expertise, Vital Strike, Trip, Improved Critical, Disarm, and Aldori Dueling Mastery are all pretty solid bets.
Give it a shot and enjoy!

[connelld1965]

Awesome response. Thank you!!

[Darkfireslide]

No problem! :)

[AdjectiveBadger]

Since attributes get increasingly expensive the higher they get, but only at character creation, I'd suggest not starting with any above 18.

My human fighter (Aldori defender) is:
STR: 13
DEX: 17
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 14

The 13 STR is because I'm not certain whether piranha attack or power attack will work, and I also want the bump to carrying capacity and athletics.

[Darkfireslide]

Piranha Strike works. Power Attack works. Having a higher dex improves hit chance with finesse weapons, thus improving the chance to hit with a Piranha Strike, thus improving overall average damage.

The problem is that a +2 to hit is more than it initially seems. Let's do some math. Say you're fighting an opponent with 20 AC. Your 3rd level Fighter likely has a +7 or +8 with a Masterwork blade and weapon focus with a +3 Dex. Let's say you did your feats right and you have a +8. No outside buffs.
You need a 12 to hit an enemy with 20 AC. This is a 40% chance to hit, and a 4% chance to land a critical. You will deal 1d8+3 damage if you took Slashing Grace like you should have, for 4-11 damage. Average 7.5 damage without crits.

Now let's look at it when you have 20 Dex instead of 17.
You now only need a 10 to hit an enemy with 20 AC.
Your chance to hit has risen to 50%, and your crit chance to 5%. You deal 1d8+5 damage, for 6-13 damage. Average 9.5 without crits.

Now let's look at how that plays out after 100 attack attempts.
Your build hits 40 times and on average deals 300 damage to this target after 100 attack attempts.
The same build with 20 Dex hits 50 times and on average deals 475 damage.

That is an overall performance increase of 58%.

Let's do Piranha Strike now.
You now have a hit chance of 35% and do an average damage of 9.5. Your build hits 35 times out of 100 and deals 332 damage after 100 attack attempts.

The character with 20 Dex hits 45 of 100 attacks with an average of 11.5 damage. It deals 517 damage after 100 attack attempts.

That is a 55% increase in overall performance.

Two handed fighters are lucky because they can add 1/2 their Strength modifier again to damage. Dex Fighters and Rogues cannot. The most you could reasonably do is have 19 Dex, which after 5 stat boosts becomes 24 at 20th level.

As for your build...
14 Charisma is kind of pointless. The Duelist Prestige Class build needs the maximum possible Dexterity or it just doesn't function right. It will get outclassed by simpler, less feat intensive builds.
It's true that natural 18's are more expensive to purchase but that doesn't justify using points on statistics that don't actually do anything. I only have 12 Strength in my build for carrying capacity purposes, nothing more.
Not having a maximum Dex on a Duelist or even a Rogue is stupid because it literally turns into damage. Because the Duelist can't two-hand, it needs to squeeze every point of damage it can from a Dex modifier. This is also why I suggest getting Weapon Focus--making up for lost ground compared to a high Str Fighter.
I don't mean to sound like a robot, but you could have at least given your Fighter a 16 base Dex to raise to an 18 to start with. 8 Wisdom is painful: that character is likely going to fail most Will saves it has to make.

Advice like yours is harmful to people new to the game looking for genuine advice. Learn the game more first.

[AdjectiveBadger]

Originally posted by Darkfireslide:

Advice like yours is harmful to people new to the game looking for genuine advice. Learn the game more first.

Or: I'm looking for more from a roleplaying game than maximizing my damage output. Like passing persuasion checks.

I've been playing D&D for almost 30 years and I know what I like in a game. Just because you disagree with my advice doesn't make it any less genuine.

[Meeky]

Originally posted by AdjectiveBadger:

Originally posted by Darkfireslide:

Advice like yours is harmful to people new to the game looking for genuine advice. Learn the game more first.

Or: I'm looking for more from a roleplaying game than maximizing my damage output. Like passing persuasion checks.

I've been playing D&D for almost 30 years and I know what I like in a game. Just because you disagree with my advice doesn't make it any less genuine.

You don't need 14 Charisma to pass charisma checks though. 10 Charisma + persuasion as a class skill = Hooray, you pass checks fairly well, and can safe/reload as necessary. Plus, your companions help you pass charisma checks if I recall correctly. (Like, Linzi rolls persuasion for you.)

Personally, in this game I'd go for specifically 19 DEX. You get 5 stat upgrades throughout the game, and those total to 24 at level 20. 19 DEX gives you a little more leeway in how to spend your points. Good trade.

[Bastion]

actually. just want to point out that you need to be 8th level rogue to get bab 6,

[Meeky]

Originally posted by Bastion:

actually. just want to point out that you need to be 8th level rogue to get bab 6,

That build is 4 fighter, 3 rogue. That gets you BAB 6.

[Darkfireslide]

AdjectiveBadger, I've been playing mostly Fighters for 10 in nothing but 3.5e/PF and balanced stats for Martial characters don't work in this system if you want to feel mechanically like you're actually good at doing what you do. The OP specifically wanted a strong build and I gave him the most optimized one I could come up with that wouldn't hurt his game and would make his Duelist actually feel like a master swordsman instead of a squishy rogue. I detest the minmaxers who break tabletop RPGs and PF is really easy to break, but what I've described here is a reasonable build for someone who wants to play Duelist and actually have fun in combat.

I've done plenty of RP builds myself but when it comes down to it, characters who are optimized feel more like what a hero feels like unless you specifically want to be an average Joe. The reason I say your advice is damaging is because new people should have fun with strong characters if that's what they want, and even this optimized Duelist build isn't anything to write home about if we're being honest, but at least it can keep up with a regular two handed Fighter. People who play a cool class like Duelist but don't build right are going to get frustrated and not play the game because their character sucks. That's why Optimization is important. Not minmaxing, but optimizing, because Kingmaker is a hard game.

[AdjectiveBadger]

Originally posted by Meeky:

You don't need 14 Charisma to pass charisma checks though. 10 Charisma + persuasion as a class skill = Hooray, you pass checks fairly well, and can safe/reload as necessary. Plus, your companions help you pass charisma checks if I recall correctly. (Like, Linzi rolls persuasion for you.)

Because savescumming is the definition of fun...

[Zero]

Originally posted by Darkfireslide:

From there the feat selection is up to you. Feats like Combat Expertise, Vital Strike, Trip, Improved Critical, Disarm, and Aldori Dueling Mastery are all pretty solid bets.
Give it a shot and enjoy!

Apparently vital strike can't actually be activated right now.