Magus Builds

[Evilosangelo]

I saw a thread which gave some good info on making a Magus. Sadly can’t find it now. Sorry. I’m looking at rolling a Magus Eldritch Scion And I just want some ideas on how to map out my skills, feats, bloodlines etc etc.

Thanks all

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

Originally posted by Lord_WC:

F5/M15 has 170 hp and 15 CL while DD8/S12 has 188 hp (counting the +2 CON) and 18 CL.
Due to the +4 STR I'm dubious that even as a gish fighter is a good splash - especially 5 levels. Just cast a tenser's and get full BAB, like really...

Youre playing with 3.5 mindset, not pathfinder.

Your +4 Str will net you +2 hit/damage

5 levels of fighter(starting as a level 1 fighter, getting the last for level 17-20) will net you easier life with feats, access to weapon specialization and weapon training, with gloves of dueling you will be rocking an allmighty +4 to hit, +5 to damage and a extra attack. If you do as i say and get 1 fighter at level 1, you will also be able to wear a mithral fullplate at only level 8 (7 magus) without penalty or as just as you start act2 if you dont mind the ASF. Also DD8/S12 will net you no heavy armor.

With magus you need all the hit bonus you can get. Since you dont go to 15 with magus you will also not be able to get Bane Arcana for an extra +2/+2 and 2d6 extra damage.

DD8 is a trap, you will be weaker than even a strait magus 20.

Magus (including Eldritch Scion) gets access to fighter feats by Mag lvl 10 (inc specialisation and imp crit), and access to full plate casting at level 13. Splash 1 fighter for armor feats, maybe, and 4 DD, gives way more than 5 fighter. 8 DD is not worth it, for sure.

[RafaelElendil]

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

Oh, AND NEVER go Dragon Disciple, its a trap. If you wanna multiclass, go Fighter 5/Magus 15.

Not true. For Eldritch Scions, the 4 levels of DD give as much bonus to attack, greater damage, greater AC, and I think even extra magic power, than 5 levels of Fighter. Fighters are often a great MC, but here DD is just better because of the synergies.

The bonus STR will be more than offset by greater weapon specialization, plus weapon training, and will be MILES better with gloves of dueling. Also will allow you to use full plate since level 1.

[RafaelElendil]

The ONLY magss archetype that i think is stronger going pure magus is Myrmidarch and its not in this game. Just simulate the builds to level 20 and compare the numbers. DD4 may come close, yes, will not be a "bad build", but fighter 5 will just be stronger.

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Not true. For Eldritch Scions, the 4 levels of DD give as much bonus to attack, greater damage, greater AC, and I think even extra magic power, than 5 levels of Fighter. Fighters are often a great MC, but here DD is just better because of the synergies.

The bonus STR will be more than offset by greater weapon specialization, plus weapon training, and will be MILES better with gloves of dueling. Also will allow you to use full plate since level 1.

You can only get Greater Weapon Spec at level 19, at which point you will jump ahead in damage by 1 point; until then, you will be behind, but sure, I didn't account for that. Weapon training is the same, unless you take the 5 fighter levels earlier, which causes more issues. You can wear plate armour from whenever you get the first fighter level, but if you want to cast spells, you need 13 in Magus first.

Regarding the Gloves of Dueling; are they in the game? Also, do they affect the Two Weapon Fighter bonus as well, or only the normal Weapon Training ability? I am not far into the game.

Hit points, saves and AC will always be just slightly better on the DD though.

EDIT: oh, and DD increases your spellcaster level, which is an important part of why one plays Magus instead of pure physical class.

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

The ONLY magss archetype that i think is stronger going pure magus is Myrmidarch and its not in this game. Just simulate the builds to level 20 and compare the numbers. DD4 may come close, yes, will not be a "bad build", but fighter 5 will just be stronger.

Well Sword Saint + Duelist is a great way to get crazy AC from Int. Taking a level or 2 of traditional monk lets one benefit from Wis too, not to mention Dex. I made this character and had 20 AC at level 1: 4 dex,1 from int (lvl 1 Magus limit), Tart's ring +1, and shield spell +4. Level 2, splashed monk then had like 7/8 in all saves and unbuffed AC of 20. At level 20, this will have around 60 AC, and good BAB from 11 levels of Duelist/monk, and good tanking with the ability to counter attack when myself/allies get attacked.

[Noaziz]

any idea on where I could find the gloves of dueling ?

[RafaelElendil]

Originally posted by Noaziz:

any idea on where I could find the gloves of dueling ?

You can find the minor version for 4k at the start of act 2. I expeculate that since they created a minor version of it, you will probably have access to the normal version (+2) at some point and maybe even a "greater" version (+3 or more) at endgame.

[RafaelElendil]

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

The ONLY magss archetype that i think is stronger going pure magus is Myrmidarch and its not in this game. Just simulate the builds to level 20 and compare the numbers. DD4 may come close, yes, will not be a "bad build", but fighter 5 will just be stronger.

Well Sword Saint + Duelist is a great way to get crazy AC from Int. Taking a level or 2 of traditional monk lets one benefit from Wis too, not to mention Dex. I made this character and had 20 AC at level 1: 4 dex,1 from int (lvl 1 Magus limit), Tart's ring +1, and shield spell +4. Level 2, splashed monk then had like 7/8 in all saves and unbuffed AC of 20. At level 20, this will have around 60 AC, and good BAB from 11 levels of Duelist/monk, and good tanking with the ability to counter attack when myself/allies get attacked.

Duelist and Sword Saint magus ability dont statck, they are the same ability.

20 AC at level 1 is relative low to crappy, specially considering shield.

My magus at level 2 (1 fighter, 1 magus) have 22 AC unbuffed, 26 buffed, which all increases to 27 unbuffed 31 buffed by level 3.

Level 2: +9 full plate, +1 dex, +1 dodge, +1 ring, +4 shield for 26
Level 3: +9 full plate, +1 dex, +1 dodge, +1 ring, +amulet, +4 shield, +4 crane style for 31 AC(which you can increase to 32 buying the full plate +1)


For a sword saint with fighter level 1 you should have:
Level 2: +4 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 dodge, +1 int, +1 ring, +4 shield for 23 AC
Level 3: +5 chain shirt+1, +2 Dex, + 1 dodge, +2 Int, +1 ring, +1 amulet, +4 shield, +4 crane style for 30 AC (which will probably increase for +1 next 1 or 2 levels)

In all cases, 1 level of fighter will make you better at everything. (you can remove your armor to cast shield if you want before a fight)

[RafaelElendil]

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

The bonus STR will be more than offset by greater weapon specialization, plus weapon training, and will be MILES better with gloves of dueling. Also will allow you to use full plate since level 1.

You can only get Greater Weapon Spec at level 19, at which point you will jump ahead in damage by 1 point; until then, you will be behind, but sure, I didn't account for that. Weapon training is the same, unless you take the 5 fighter levels earlier, which causes more issues. You can wear plate armour from whenever you get the first fighter level, but if you want to cast spells, you need 13 in Magus first.

Regarding the Gloves of Dueling; are they in the game? Also, do they affect the Two Weapon Fighter bonus as well, or only the normal Weapon Training ability? I am not far into the game.

Hit points, saves and AC will always be just slightly better on the DD though.

EDIT: oh, and DD increases your spellcaster level, which is an important part of why one plays Magus instead of pure physical class.

Gloves of dueling are in the game.

Your build is suggesting DD4 last, if you get DD4 earlier you will delay Magus 15 which is the GREATEST damage/hit boost of the class which is bane weapon.

[Wolfenacht]

Originally posted by Zautos:

this migth help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmxKJW6l408

My only issue with that video is I have a hard time understanding the accent. It may just be me.. but I have no idea what's being said most of the time.

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

Originally posted by speedingdeath:

Well Sword Saint + Duelist is a great way to get crazy AC from Int. Taking a level or 2 of traditional monk lets one benefit from Wis too, not to mention Dex. I made this character and had 20 AC at level 1: 4 dex,1 from int (lvl 1 Magus limit), Tart's ring +1, and shield spell +4. Level 2, splashed monk then had like 7/8 in all saves and unbuffed AC of 20. At level 20, this will have around 60 AC, and good BAB from 11 levels of Duelist/monk, and good tanking with the ability to counter attack when myself/allies get attacked.

Duelist and Sword Saint magus ability dont statck, they are the same ability.

20 AC at level 1 is relative low to crappy, specially considering shield.

My magus at level 2 (1 fighter, 1 magus) have 22 AC unbuffed, 26 buffed, which all increases to 27 unbuffed 31 buffed by level 3.

Level 2: +9 full plate, +1 dex, +1 dodge, +1 ring, +4 shield for 26
Level 3: +9 full plate, +1 dex, +1 dodge, +1 ring, +amulet, +4 shield, +4 crane style for 31 AC(which you can increase to 32 buying the full plate +1)


For a sword saint with fighter level 1 you should have:
Level 2: +4 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 dodge, +1 int, +1 ring, +4 shield for 23 AC
Level 3: +5 chain shirt+1, +2 Dex, + 1 dodge, +2 Int, +1 ring, +1 amulet, +4 shield, +4 crane style for 30 AC (which will probably increase for +1 next 1 or 2 levels)

In all cases, 1 level of fighter will make you better at everything. (you can remove your armor to cast shield if you want before a fight)

No, this is mostly wrong.

Firstly, the Duelist and Sword Saint abilities *do* stack. They have the same name, but they have different conditions (Duelist is easier to meet), and level up with their respective classes. They are separate stacking bonuses on the AC tracker, and you could easily test this before being so dismissive.

You armour-wearing builds are also not in 'all cases' 'better at everything'. Your eldritch scion build has 26 buffed against my 24 buffed at level 2, but yours assumes (a) you have the chance to take off your armour before the fight, which is often not true, especially considering the random encounters, (b) you don't want to cast your other spells until high level, because janky armour removal doesn't work in combat, and you only get the heavy armour spell casting at Mag 13, (c) you don't mind moving slowly, and (d) you actually want to take the 1 set of early fullplate away from a companion, which you will definitely have at least one of who wants it, leaving them at least 2 AC short.

Your Sword Saint build is just worse in most ways that I can see; at level 2, I have 24 AC against your 23, and we have equal AC at level 3 assuming equal gearing and level prioritisation, after which mine has the later gains from Monk wis, Duelist int, SS int and Dex, plus I can cast spells without failure, plus I have far better saves, plus I have Evasion.

It looks like splashing fighter is *sometimes* better in *some* ways. Namely, you can sometimes have slightly higher AC on your main in early levels, if you don't mind making a number of sacrifices. There are some other advantages too, but it's hardly everything always.

[Wolfenacht]

Is anyone else finding the Magus underwhelming without Metamagic(Intensify spell) and Dervish Dance?

[Caelus]

fighter is good..... you dont need to think....just do fighter and you can send your char in to survive anything! lol .... only downside is it doesnt feel edgy/exotic/cool enough and feels vanilla when you want chocolate.... but yeah, fighters strong! lol probably stronger than any edgy cross class build

[speedingdeath]

Originally posted by Caelus:

fighter is good..... you dont need to think....just do fighter and you can send your char in to survive anything! lol .... only downside is it doesnt feel edgy/exotic/cool enough and feels vanilla when you want chocolate.... but yeah, fighters strong! lol probably stronger than any edgy cross class build

But it demonstrably isn't. It's great for many of your companions, who don't have great stats, and can benefit from cheap access to heavy armour, martial weapons, racial exotics and other feats, but if you have the ability to optimise from the beginning, there are many builds for which fighter just doesn't add anything that another doesn't add more of.

[Biggie]

I need to jump in and kill the argument for people protecting their plate wearers.
Plate is super cool but you will benefit most of it if your fighter for the passives.

As for AC. At lvl 3 my Swordsaint/Fighter/Monk have 34 AC in combat, with buffs like shield and mage armor.
He is a halfling, and with 3 mobility, and Crane Fighting style, your defensive style now gives -2 to hit and +6 to hit.
That said, nothing said you cant use defensive style unamored, but likely not.

Duelist and Sword Saint passives stack. With crane style, half ling.
You will be rocking around 60 AC at around 16. Give or take a few.
However, this is ALL dodge AC. Hence being flatfooted dont help alot.
Then again, at just medium level if your flat footed in your plate armor they will still hit you.

Around lvl 10 if you dont have 30+ AC dont bother going armor cause enemies will hit you, alot.

On the flip side, a shield master fighter can sit at nearly 30 AC at lvl 3 unbuffed so, but thats with all feats into extra ac (armoor specialist, dodge and atleast 14 dex)

Anyway, you want a monster AC you go Sword saint/Duelist/Monk/Fighter.
You get all the good feats from Magus and Duelist.
However, your spell casting ability isclose to none.

The build im doing not even sure you need Duelist, or if you want to wait longer for feats you can also go rogue instead of fighter but then you will suffer on lvl 2 as well, since lvl 1 your doing pathetic damage. But Rogue instead of fighter is viable, free weapon finesse as well which is a feat you otherwise take. 3 levels rogue, sword saint/Duelist/Monk, I can see going.