Spellcasters are kind of useless

[Elepuff]

Just want to add my two cents into viable character classes

There are certain classes that are just not viable. At present, mages are kind of useless. The utility of martial classes just outweighs the magic characters by a significant margin. The clerics companion can easily fulfill the buff/debuff duties
I list some of the arguments below

1. For a vast majority of the game, they are pathetically weak and are only useful for buffs.
The debuffs rarely hits due to high saves on the enemies. People say that they they get higher end spells later on, which is true but for 80% of the game, you will be playing the nanny for the rest of the party.

2. Due to the insane number of enemy engagements in this game. A mage can use up nearly all his useful spells every quickly before needing a rest. And when there are time pressures and non-restocking merchants, playing mages become a chore. All the theory crafting about getting 500+ damage on a sneak hellfire ray sounds good in theory, but useless in actual gameplay. You can only in theory do those damage at high levels, which is towards the end of the game - so unless you want to feel useless for 60 -70 hours - play a pure mage class.

3. Even if you can do those insane damages, provided the spells hits, you are still like a one trick pony - remember you need to rest a lot and the loading screens is insane. So if you want to have a game over - kingdom destroyed - or don't mind the loading screens...yea...rest as much as you want. In dungeons, where there is like at least 10 + encounters per map, you are probably as useful as a random NPC.

4. In order for mages to do some decent sustained damage, they need to multiclass to get some sneak attack or animal companion - and that limits the mage class growth and its usefulness even further. Don't even talk tanking sorcerors - the AC requirements not to be hit in this game is extremely high. Anyone who puts Harrim into the frontlines can tell you that and he is suppose to be a tank/cleric.

Whereas martial classes (except monks) deal sustained damage and sustain throughout the entire game. A few front line martial classes can nearly finish a fight before a mage completes one spell. E.g fight starts - I will chuck a fireball - martial and archers rush over - fireball hits for a measly 30 - 50 dmg maybe. Before I can chuck another spell...fight is over

Look at the damage screen - what did my mage do? Absolutely nothing......

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

Ah, that's probably possible then.

What are you running on inflated numbers? I just don't like the idea of making all my meticulously maximized attack/ac/saveDC values worthless.

[climbingeastofwinter]

Summoned creatures alone are enough of a reason to fall in love with spell casters - there are going to be plenty of situations where you'd rather have aonther class, sure, but if you can tie up a tough enemy encounter (like many boss fights) with summoned creatures, you can keep your party members out of harm's way by hiding behind a wall of summoned meat.

[Shadenuat]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

meticulously maximized attack/ac/saveDC values worthless.

You don't need to meticulously maximize everything on Normal, at least from my experience it's mostly pre buff > select all left click.

Meticulously maximizing is, for example taking Linnorm on Hard+, is carefully buffing Regongar (since I use companions cause muhh story), using Arcane Accuracy with Charisma buffs for 22-25 BAB, and then casting True Strike & Invis to deny DEX bonuses etc. That way Linnorm with 40+ AC which was unhittable would be hittable basically on anything but 1's. Activate power attack and maybe add lead blades from Wand of Lead Blades and throw a touch spell into the mix for some massive magus destruction.

Of course using a correct spell selection against enemies like this by basically removing RNG from equation is a lot more effective and more interesting, for me, since I find micromanaging fighters like this unnecessary. But they are still great for chunking mooks even on higher difficulties.

[Humble]

people expect mage to spam damage/kill enemies every battle like fighter do and believe mage is powerful, but mage don't do every battle, and let fighter do the work every fight believe that mage is useless. It's action count that matter. While there is 0 level spell unlimited cast, cantip, I think it's should be add spell damage fire, water, ice, posion damage basic and buff nonstop every level to improve speed casting and damage so people feel mage isn't useless every battle and not had to hold and save mage in back and not use it.

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

my 40d6 disentgrate says hi

my 8 x 10d8 sneak attack rogue says hi...
4 attacks at full ab, 2 at -5, 2 at -10

[Naked Granny]

Originally posted by Ewalden:

Even by level 3 you will meet certain enemies that are deadly. Dare I mention a certain temple and a mist curse?

By the time you hit level 5 or 6, you will be facing enemies which makes spell casters a must. Ever fought giant trees that are more or less imune to weapons? Or what about Ancient Wisps? Considered how much damage the right spell will do to a Hydra or three?

Unless you tone down the enemies beneath difficulty 0.6 or 0.5 and lower critical damage having a wizard, sorcerer or magus is downright necessary. If you are talking about bards and alchemists, I can understand. They aren't as destructive. While brute steel and clerics can get you far, though, there are things out there that will crush you if you don't got fireballs and flaming hands.

The tree is weak to axes. And you get some ridiculously powerful axes by that point in the game.

The Wisp requires magical weapons, and you easily have dozens laying around by the time you see your first one. Keep Remove Fear handy (it's a level 1 cleric spell) and maybe invest in the Blind Fight (which every melee should buy ASAP no matter what their build anyway, so I dunno what you're complaining about). Wisps are also absolutely immune to any spell whatsoever except for magic missile which only deals 1d4+1 damage per missile and you only get one missile per odd-numbered caster level (two missiles at CL 3). Which means it will take you literally a dozen rounds to kill it with magic missile when you meet your first wisp. It'll die in two or maybe three rounds if you just tell Amiri to whack it with that magical sword she starts the game with that deals 15 damage per swing...

Hydras are famous for having a lot of HP and regeneration, so nuking them is a ridiculously inefficient strategy. They're also famous for having terrible AC and terrible Will saves. Nuking them is very seriously the worst thing you can spend your spellcaster's time doing when you encounter one. If your spellcaster even has time to act before it's dead, you should Color Spray it to stun it for a round. It will die before you get to cast one more spell if youre melees are whacking it.

Fireballs and Burning Hands are the worst usage of spell slots ever. If it has a lot of attacks per round, you need to Slow it, not nuke it. If it's tanky, you need to debuff it, not nuke it. If it's an assassin, you need See Invis, not a nuke because it has Evasion. If it's a nuker, you need Resist Energy, not nukes of your own to spit roast your frontline with.

I get it, some players just looooooove their blasters... but in this game? Blasting is the least efficient use of your resources, and is completely ineffective 90% of the time.

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by Humble:

people expect mage to spam damage/kill enemies every battle like fighter do and believe mage is powerful, but mage don't do every battle, and let fighter do the work every fight believe that mage is useless. It's action count that matter. While there is 0 level spell unlimited cast, cantip, I think it's should be add spell damage fire, water, ice, posion damage basic and buff nonstop every level to improve speed casting and damage so people feel mage isn't useless every battle and not had to hold and save mage in back and not use it.

Well yeah i do, cantrips should have some scaling instead of being permament sad 1d3.
Give them 1d3 every 2 lvls so they get to 10d3 at 20 and maybe feat with auto maximise or auto quickening for cantrips.
Ranger with bow will still hit for at least twice as much but it wont be as painful to sit back and twiddle your thumbs as wizard

[AvivLobel]

thats why i took rogue spellcaster so he could get sneak attack on spells , and i aslo took ranger magus so he add his spells to the bow attacks whitch is nice dmg.

and they have all the spells just like wiz and sorc

[solthusx]

Originally posted by FlagrantCrazy:

Given that half of the playerbase seems to think casters are fine and the other half seems to think they suck this seems like a subjective issue... just dont run a caster if you think they suck?

Personally I've always felt like dnd casters are sort of like a secret weapon. You cut through all the trash encounters with your martial characters then you bring out the caster to solve the problem when the boss has such a ridiculously high ac and attack bonus that your martials just die almost instantly. There's lots of room for interesting solutions to very difficult fights that just aren't possible without a caster.

If you're having problems with needing to rest too often because you're running out of spells fighting all the easy encounters, I think you're using arcane casters wrong. (Unless of course you're an all caster party!)

I do agree with everyone's gripes about access to scrolls though. It would be nice to actually be able to access the entire spellbook as a wizard...

To be honest, the effectiveness of casters is highly dependent on the spells available to them; Without the right spells they can come across as rather weak compared to martial class who are at least always able to attack. Access to the right spells can make or break a wizard. Sorcerers are better treated as specialist casters because they are limited to knowing far fewer spells than a Wizard but can cast them more often without worrying about weather they have the right spells memorized.

The other thing is that D&D/Pathfinder is the poster child of the 'Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards' trope; at low levels, martial characters dominate, at higher level, casters (specifically, Wizards, Clerics and Druids) break everything. So some who's still at low/mid levels would think that casters are weak if they're not familiar with the system.

The other way you can look at is in terms of 'user friendliness'. Martial classes are easy to use; as long as they're properly geared, all you really need to do is point them at the right target (and activate Rage for Barbarians). Full casters require a good deal more micro management to be used to their full potential.

[Shadenuat]

If it has a lot of attacks per round, you need to Slow it, not nuke it. If it's tanky, you need to debuff it, not nuke it. If it's an assassin, you need See Invis, not a nuke because it has Evasion. If it's a nuker, you need Resist Energy, not nukes of your own to spit roast your frontline with.

Can Save from Slow, and can be resistant/immune due to Free Action

Debuffs can also be saved against

See Invis is 10 minutes/level, doesn't mean you can't nuke it while having buff on

You can nuke with things that don't care for Evasion

Enemy nukers are bad at defending themselves and often have high AC/concealment, but die like flies to 2 maximized nukes

Burning hands/Fireballs are p. great with correct feats and on levels you generally going to use them.

[FlagrantCrazy]

Originally posted by solthusx:

Originally posted by FlagrantCrazy:

Given that half of the playerbase seems to think casters are fine and the other half seems to think they suck this seems like a subjective issue... just dont run a caster if you think they suck?

Personally I've always felt like dnd casters are sort of like a secret weapon. You cut through all the trash encounters with your martial characters then you bring out the caster to solve the problem when the boss has such a ridiculously high ac and attack bonus that your martials just die almost instantly. There's lots of room for interesting solutions to very difficult fights that just aren't possible without a caster.

If you're having problems with needing to rest too often because you're running out of spells fighting all the easy encounters, I think you're using arcane casters wrong. (Unless of course you're an all caster party!)

I do agree with everyone's gripes about access to scrolls though. It would be nice to actually be able to access the entire spellbook as a wizard...

To be honest, the effectiveness of casters is highly dependent on the spells available to them; Without the right spells they can come across as rather weak compared to martial class who are at least always able to attack. Access to the right spells can make or break a wizard. Sorcerers are better treated as specialist casters because they are limited to knowing far fewer spells than a Wizard but can cast them more often without worrying about weather they have the right spells memorized.

The other thing is that D&D/Pathfinder is the poster child of the 'Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards' trope; at low levels, martial characters dominate, at higher level, casters (specifically, Wizards, Clerics and Druids) break everything. So some who's still at low/mid levels would think that casters are weak if they're not familiar with the system.

The other way you can look at is in terms of 'user friendliness'. Martial classes are easy to use; as long as they're properly geared, all you really need to do is point them at the right target (and activate Rage for Barbarians). Full casters require a good deal more micro management to be used to their full potential.

I agree. Wizards are good for solving a hard fight after you've already lost once and can change your prep. As for the non-linear progression I suppose I know what to expect having played heaps of bg etc. But even at level 7 I'm finding some boss fights that are just not possible without my wizard and druid. (Playing on core rules settings)

I also like micro management in my fights sometimes :)

[Caedwyn]

Perhaps part of the useless feeling is related to aesthetic? We see fighters & rogues doing their role consistently, while, instead of simply watching, the mages require more focus, micromanagement, & judgment to

cast on specific targets,
cast the best spell damage per resistance,
cast the best CC,
pre-emptively buff, or rebuff,
etc.

And they do the above things a limited number of times. "Why can't they just be consistent?" is a question some ask when they compare a caster to a martial class-- one has the luxury of auto-pilot, the other doesn't.

If people want to focus more on the "fire & forget" idea, and only occasionally use their mages' spells, perhaps Cantrips could get some gentle scaling to contribute more in higher levels? Some extra damage per caster level? Nothing which out-competes proper spell use, but something which makes them less than terrible after beginning levels.

[climbingeastofwinter]

Again, as someone just mentioned, cantrips add sneak attack dice. You can easily be throwing 1d3+10d6 jolts or acid globs at level 20, and if you're running a draconic bloodline sorceror each of those sneak attack dice adds the +1 elemental damage, if you picked the appropriate element. d3+10d6+10 isn't amazing, but it's a nice steady stream of ranged touch attack damage for those otherwise hard-to-hit enemies.

[BoringORacale]

Originally posted by Caedwyn:

Perhaps part of the useless feeling is related to aesthetic? We see fighters & rogues doing their role consistently, while, instead of simply watching, the mages require more focus, micromanagement, & judgment to

cast on specific targets,
cast the best spell damage per resistance,
cast the best CC,
pre-emptively buff, or rebuff,
etc.

And they do the above things a limited number of times. "Why can't they just be consistent?" is a question some ask when they compare a caster to a martial class-- one has the luxury of auto-pilot, the other doesn't.

If people want to focus more on the "fire & forget" idea, and only occasionally use their mages' spells, perhaps Cantrips could get some gentle scaling to contribute more in higher levels? Some extra damage per caster level? Nothing which out-competes proper spell use, but something which makes them less than terrible after beginning levels.

The problem is that this game is based on Pathfinder rules set and there is no rules for scaling for cantrips in Pathfinder and it probably willt not seem right to Pathfinder fans

[Elepuff]

Originally posted by Zengar:

What I mean is that, an extra warrior doesn't matter when you don't really need another one to deal witht the trash. My sorceror however, makes difficult fights so much easier that I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world. A single well placed fireball, even at level 5 is much more usefull (and fun) that an extra front liner trying to get in a few hits in an already crowded front.
Also, the Crown when you become King gives you +6 to INT, WIS and CHA. Suck it fighters.
By the way, here are my stats:
Sylvan Sorc 13 / Human
STR 10
DEX 20 / +5
CON 18 / +4
INT 16 / +3
WIS 16 / +3
CHA 27 / 8

HP 119
AC: 27 (10 / DEX 5 / Robe of the True Master +5 / Bracers of Armor +5 / Wyvern Skin Cloak +2)
Fort: 12
Ref: 13
Will: 15

Attack: +13 / 4-9 DMG / Javelin +2

Crown: +6 INT, DEX, STR / +2 ST vs Compulsion
Wyvern Skin Cloak: +2 Natural Armor / +4 vs poison, sleep and paralysis
Ring of Security: +2 Deflection / +2 ST / 14 Spell Resistance
Ring of the beast king: Animal Companion +2 STR and DEX
Bracers of Armor +5
Javelin +2
Clockwork Pendant: +10 Speed / Haste and Slow are casted with Extended Spell
Robe of the True Master: +5 AC / +5 Deflection / Spell Resistance 18 / + 4 to All ST / +2 to Spell Penetration (LOL)
Belt of Physical Form +4 (DEX/CON)
Gloves of Elven Kind: +5 Arcana / +5 Concentration
Swiftboot boots: +10 Speed. It says it doesn't stack but it does. My sorc is super fast at 50ft

Not to mention my Dog, who doesn't need to be the best pet in the game to kick ass with 35 AC, 160 HP and +17 to attack.

All of this unbuffed. Sorry, your 2h warrior not only doesn't have a chance, he is also much more boring to play and use. Fighters are mostly auto-atack and wait.
My sorc can dimension door behind enemy lines and blast them with lighting bolt. Is it cost effective? no. But damn it looks good.

And how long of the game do you have before you acquire this level of stats and equipment?
maybe 10 % left before game finishes. And a two handed warrior will be just as strong and most importantly - useful for the entire game.