Swarms

[Jin-Roh]

Seriously? Unkillable if you don't have Alchemist flasks or acid? First dungeon? Here's some spiders hurr durr and also unkillable munchkin spiders.

So I'm forced to reload a save go back to the store and...buy a pharmaceutical store of flasks because one flask, three flasks, four flasks sometimes don't work?

Hoping this really poor level design isn't in the rest of the game. There's a real gem here but the swarms are just stupid.

[Mork]

Just take the quest item and leave.

If you really want to kill them come back around level 4-5 with more fire power from your casters.

[Martialis]

Torches will do 1 point of damage, IF you can hit. But yeah, about the only way to clear out all rooms in the spider cave at L2 is to have a grenadier with you. You can come back at L3 with a burning arc spell if you remember, but I never think to go back, and IMO it's really not worth it.

The good news is that swarms take full damage from elemental attacks, and at higher levels you will have plenty of elemental spells and weapons, so they cease to be an issue.

[Martialis]

Oh, and I forgot to add, make sure you have one or two characters with you who are decent at ranged attacks (point blank shot, precise shot, and good dex) to make best use of the flasks. If you wonder why you always miss and do only 1 pt of damage, that's why.

[Freak4Leeks]

Originally posted by Jin-Roh:

Hoping this really poor level design isn't in the rest of the game.

:)

[Frostfeather]

Just hire a merc to cover energy damage and/or touch attacks for now. They'll be cheap at that level and you can ditch them later if you want. A Grenadier works particularly well.

And I'm not saying to hire one just to deal with swarms. You will find them to be useful in every difficult fight and having one can make the early game go more smoothly.

[forkofspite]

Swarms with tiny sized creatures (rats) aren't nearly as bad, but yes - diminutive or smaller are notoriously annoying in Pathfinder. Probably the easiest way to handle them in this game is with spells - sound burst if you have a 3rd level cleric works wonders (the quest item is before the swarms, so you can come back later). Firebelly (level 1 cleric) also works, but not as well. Wizard/sorcerer casters generally have access to burning hands as a level 1 spell.

Also, your arcane cantrips work (acid splash, ray of frost, etc.), but you still need to be able to actually hit them.

As noted by Martialis and night4, alchemists also work. However, like sound burst or other non-cantrip spells, you have limited bomb uses per day though (at least, normal alchemists do - not sure about grenadier).

off-topic edit:
For Wrath, they made swarms much less deadly in turn-based mode. They only deal their damage at the beginning of their turn (except for swarms from a specific spell), so you can just move out of the area and keep trying. However, some swarms cause a confusion effect if you fail a save, which limits that strategy a bit.

[jsaving]

This is one of the earliest areas of the game where you must think rather than simply brute-forcing your way through encounters. The game offers a variety of low-level spells such as sound burst that dish out energy damage and are available to some of your initial companions. Failing that, you can have your high-DEX characters throw flasks which are readily available from Bokken should you need them. If you struggle to hit the swarms with your flasks, then you likely haven't taken the precise shot feat which is a prerequisite for nearly every sound missile build, and will need to change your strategy so that one party member "kites" the swarm, remaining just outside of melee range so that your missile characters can attack the swarm without incurring the normal -4 penalty. That way you won't need precise shot to be effective. And when you run out of flasks, you simply return to Bokken and purchase more. Good luck!

[Martialis]

Originally posted by forkofspite:

off-topic edit:
For Wrath, they made swarms much less deadly in turn-based mode. They only deal their damage at the beginning of their turn (except for swarms from a specific spell), so you can just move out of the area and keep trying. However, some swarms cause a confusion effect if you fail a save, which limits that strategy a bit.

The other thing that makes swarms easier in Wrath is that on Normal or lower, melee weapons do half damage to them.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by jsaving:

This is one of the earliest areas of the game where you must think rather than simply brute-forcing your way through encounters. The game offers a variety of low-level spells such as sound burst that dish out energy damage and are available to some of your initial companions. Failing that, you can have your high-DEX characters throw flasks which are readily available from Bokken should you need them. If you struggle to hit the swarms with your flasks, then you likely haven't taken the precise shot feat which is a prerequisite for nearly every sound missile build, and will need to change your strategy so that one party member "kites" the swarm, remaining just outside of melee range so that your missile characters can attack the swarm without incurring the normal -4 penalty. And when you run out of flasks, you simply return to Bokken and purchase more. Good luck!

Of course, the problem with thinking about it is that you have to die there first to know what you're thinking about.

Also, exactly who is supposed to have Precise Shot at this point? Octavia will if you have her, sure. Some PCs might. I guess you could put it on Linzi if you're waiting until level 3 to do the cave, but that's a questionable build choice.

[forkofspite]

Originally posted by Martialis:

The other thing that makes swarms easier in Wrath is that on Normal or lower, melee weapons do half damage to them.

I don't think it depends on difficulty level. In Kingmaker, the mandragora swarms take half damage from piercing/slashing (and full from bludgeoning) on Challenging difficulty. In Wrath, rat and vescavor swarms take half from piercing/slahing (full bludgeoning) on Core difficulty. Also in Wrath, locust and tick swarms are immune regardless of bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, but I've only tested that on Core difficulty.

It depends on the size of the individual critters that comprise the swarm.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by alanc9:

Also, exactly who is supposed to have Precise Shot at this point? Octavia will if you have her, sure. Some PCs might. I guess you could put it on Linzi if you're waiting until level 3 to do the cave, but that's a questionable build choice.

That's just all the more reason to have an Alchemist merc. Bombs still do some damage if they miss, and you could potentially have Precise Shot at that point.

[Rizilliant]

Originally posted by Jin-Roh:

Hoping this really poor level design isn't in the rest of the game. There's a real gem here but the swarms are just stupid.

There are way too many instances of the player having to know whats coming, and being prepared ahead of time. It took me several hundred hours to finally start enjoying myself. And Im still running into encounters that feel cheap, or like you have to have every encounter memorized on a repeat play through.

[Uzi Master]

I mean, in this case the guy gives you alchemists fire for the encounter, so it's telegraphed far better than most of the hard encounters.

A number of the magic classes can make dealing with the swarms easier, but if you're martial then yeah, need to use explosives or come back later.

[SeaJunk]

or switch your melee weapons to everburning torches and go to town.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by alanc9:

Also, exactly who is supposed to have Precise Shot at this point? Octavia will if you have her, sure. Some PCs might. I guess you could put it on Linzi if you're waiting until level 3 to do the cave, but that's a questionable build choice.

That's just all the more reason to have an Alchemist merc. Bombs still do some damage if they miss, and you could potentially have Precise Shot at that point.

Sure. Honestly, there are very few tactical problems in this game where the answer isn't "have the alchemist bomb it to bits."

But if we're going to these lengths with metagaming, wouldn't it be easier to metagame more and just blow the whole quest off until later?