New player - Mystic Theurge

[Mosiah]

Hey!
So I researched the game a little bit before I started and saw that there is a class called "Mystic Theurge" that resembles my image of a necromancer. Sadly I don't really get how to create a character with that class. I also hit rocks when googleing it. I saw in a wiki that it is a prestige class - no clue what that means. Only available after unlocking? DLC? Is it some multi-class thing (you start as basic class and then switch to another at a later level)?

Maybe someone can enlighten me. I really had 4-5 attempts to start the game but the research on the subject just leads me into the void again again and again...

[Mork]

CthuluIsSpy eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok so just to understand how this works -
If I go Magus / Knight I cap out at level 6 spells, gain the traits that the magus had and get better BAB

This is a extremely bad multiclassing.

Magus get better and better with class levels... you don't want stop his progression to add what EK would give you.

[CthuluIsSpy]

Mork eredeti hozzászólása:

CthuluIsSpy eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok so just to understand how this works -
If I go Magus / Knight I cap out at level 6 spells, gain the traits that the magus had and get better BAB

This is a extremely bad multiclassing.

Magus get better and better with class levels... you don't want stop his progression to add what EK would give you.

I sort of figured that, it was more of a thought exercise.
I really don't see the benefit in going Magus / EK because you don't seem to gain that much via that route, as you're already a decent fighter as magus and the point of EK seems to be to make you a decent fighter and caster.
Sorc/EK or Wiz/EK seems a lot more advantageous, as you get to cast high level spells and become a decent fighter.

[Kaerius]

For EK there's also the bard/EK/RDD route, for a more brute force approach.

For mystic theurge I'd recommend figuring out a way to synch your casting stats. You can combine cleric, druid or shaman with empyrial sorcerer(WIS), or bard/skald/sorcerer with oracle(CHA). (Some of these classes are from mods).

[Immortal Reaver]

CthuluIsSpy eredeti hozzászólása:

I really don't see the benefit in going Magus / EK because you don't seem to gain that much via that route, as you're already a decent fighter as magus and the point of EK seems to be to make you a decent fighter and caster.

Even worse when you realize that Magus has lvl 6 spell Transformation that makes you Fighter for 1 round/ lvl.

[fox5s]

@CthilulsSpy That seems like a decent summation.

The only thing I would note is that the BAB of Wizard/Eldritch knight ends up at 15 the same as the Magus. Because of the poor Wizard BAB, the Eldritch only catches the Magus BAB at level 9. There is a range of levels where the Wiz/Eld BAB exceeds the Magus by only 1 (13 to 18). So you never really get a "good" BAB, only a decent one on par with the Magus. (Same for Sorc because you have to take Eld at level 7 instead of 6.)

This is all because Prestige classes only have 10 levels making it so that you would end up as a 10 Wiz and 10 Eld.

This is overall still a good trade for a single caster level. But there are still tradeoffs. It is surprising how much losing a single caster level can affect things. It makes it harder for you to overcome spell resistance and reduces/delays certain level based effects. A single caster level isn't so bad.

Though that single level of lost spell progression puts you at the same place as a Sorcerer for getting access to the next level of spells (one extra level to get access to level 4 spells is a big deal). Going the Sorc/Eld route exacerbates this (two character levels behind Wizards for level 4 spells just hurts). This evens out in the end but you feel it while leveling.

For a Magus/Eldritch Knight, You only end up with +2 BAB up on a pure Magus (+3 at a couple points), but that is enough to get a fourth attack at level 18. Though, if you just want the fourth attack by 20, I think you only need four levels of Eldritch Knight. Probably not worth the tradeoffs.

[fox5s]

Just checked the requirements for Eldritch Knight again. You need full proficiency with ALL Martial weapons. That might be doable in the Computer game with a single feat (not sure). But in tabletop, the feat only gives you one weapon at a time. You would needs to splash an additional level of fighter or something to make that prereq. There might be other ways do do so without requiring a full level, but I'm not sure. Loss of two caster levels and spell progression is pretty harsh. It can still be worth it but you have to weigh those tradeoffs.

[Drake]

fox5s eredeti hozzászólása:

Just checked the requirements for Eldritch Knight again. You need full proficiency with ALL Martial weapons. That might be doable in the Computer game with a single feat (not sure). But in tabletop, the feat only gives you one weapon at a time. You would needs to splash an additional level of fighter or something to make that prereq. There might be other ways do do so without requiring a full level, but I'm not sure. Loss of two caster levels and spell progression is pretty harsh. It can still be worth it but you have to weigh those tradeoffs.

Yeah in pnp you have to pick a fighter level, EK 10, Wiz 9, F1 pretty much equals to a fighter/mage of equal level in AD&D 2nd, which is what the EK aimed to emulate (since D&D 3E doesn't have a similar hybrid class, the magus was a pathfidner only addition). The main point of EK is the spell critical, with a keen weapon and the right feats it happens quite often if you can get a lot of attacks per turn (it's only once per turn but you havea lot of tries to get one).

[Goblin King Jareth]

Kaerius eredeti hozzászólása:

What I really want to know is how up to date the game is vs pathfinder ruleset regarding mystic theurge pre-reqs. Used to be that you could cheese it with spell-like abilities. (For example an Aasimar cleric with glitterdust racial could qualify at level 5, with 1 level of an arcane class, I think there were ways to qualify even earlier, like level 3 early). That was later errata'd, but I don't know how the game handles it.

If you're playing with cotw+favored class don't forget to grab Magical Knack trait for one of the classes(preferably arcane side) so your DCs don't suffer too much.

I was doing similar research vs. the PnP rules and I concluded it isn't possible here via spell like abilities. I don't think you can cheese it with some arcane flavored domains like fire either because the whole book is still Divine.

IMO, rushing 3/3 for MT is a very bad way to go about it for aforementioned tempo reasons. Just adjust your mindset and be something like a solid 7 wiz first and then add a few 3 cleric utility from the other side and you're set for high level magical artillery with a few decent cleric tricks. Thassolinian Specialist that crap for even more casts of whatever, since your MT divine class can cover the utility you might miss.

Conversely, solid 7 cleric and add in 3 wiz style just when you start to actually need magic missile for some annoying hard to hit guys.

You also have the stat split to consider which means your off casting stat for utility can be like 14 if you're only going to level 14 spells for example, which still puts you in range of 20 for your choice of nuking DC and casts/day stat. I don't know if there are good options to do SAD like sorceror/oracle because sorceror is a level behind wizard in progression already. Just remember to mouse over the columns in the build screens where you can see progression counts and when you get new spells before you make it.

I checked Witch, same 2nd arcane at 3, Havocker, int and con could get you blasting all the way up on a fat HP witch while adding more utility than a regular wizard which might be minorly exploitable.

Evangelist cleric would double dip on charisma, then add sorc later for a bunch of MM casts wouldn't be too terrible.

I feel like the better approach might be to ignore early qualifiers completely and double down on a heavy spell slot class, then slowly add the second later to get a stupid amount of slots. This brings you to Oracle and Sorc to combine 20 CHA stat, and go for DCless low level nuking that can get upgraded like sonic, boneshakers, and magic missiles using metamagics, heighten, traits, prestigious spellcaster feat to make up for the missing progressions. Low level ranged touch attacks like snowball are always an option if you can just go with 20 CHA leaving you room to pump DEX a bit instead of having to split INT/WIS.

[fox5s]

Goblin King Jareth eredeti hozzászólása:

IMO, rushing 3/3 for MT is a very bad way to go about it for aforementioned tempo reasons. Just adjust your mindset and be something like a solid 7 wiz first and then add a few 3 cleric utility from the other side and you're set for high level magical artillery with a few decent cleric tricks. Thassolinian Specialist that crap for even more casts of whatever, since your MT divine class can cover the utility you might miss.

I both agree and disagree with this. The main reason I'd rush 3/3 in tabletop is that it means you can at least play with lvl 4 spells (from both the arcane and divine sides) for a bit when you reach level 10 before the game wraps up. I find that most Tabletop games end sometime between level 10 and 14. Planning beyond that is fine to think about but rarely happens in practice.

It's the same reason why, in all the Pathfinder forums, I usually dismiss arguments against multi-classing rooted in "you'll miss out on your class's capstone ability." As if a game ever goes to level 20 for me to actually care about that.

It's a bigger consideration in this computer game where you can actually expect to reach the upper levels.

[CthuluIsSpy]

fox5s eredeti hozzászólása:

Just checked the requirements for Eldritch Knight again. You need full proficiency with ALL Martial weapons. That might be doable in the Computer game with a single feat (not sure). But in tabletop, the feat only gives you one weapon at a time. You would needs to splash an additional level of fighter or something to make that prereq. There might be other ways do do so without requiring a full level, but I'm not sure. Loss of two caster levels and spell progression is pretty harsh. It can still be worth it but you have to weigh those tradeoffs.

Martial Weapon Proficiency is just a single feat, yeah.
So what all do you lost spell wise if you multi-class? Just slots or actual spell levels? Slots I'm not too worried about, but not being able to cast a high level ability like Finger of Death or Mind Blank sounds harsh.

[fox5s]

Like i said, caster levels and delayed spell progression.

Your Caster level is used for various things. Most commonly, for damage or extra effects. For example, Fireball does 1d6 per caster level up to a max of 10d6. Or Magic Missile/Scorching Ray gets entire extra missiles/rays at certain caster level checkpoints. An overlooked one might be Barkskin and Shield of Faith providing more AC at certain caster levels. Caster level also controls the range of your spells (not sure but the Computer version might ignore this part). When you cast on something that has Spell resistance or use Dispel Magic, you add your caster level to a d20 to see if it works. And I think caster level also sets the DC for them dispelling your spells (not sure).

By delayed spell progression, I am talking about what Character level (not to be confused with Class level, Caster level, or Spell level) you get access to certain Spell levels. For example, a pure wizard or cleric has the fastest spell progression gaining access to a new level of spell every two character levels after the first (gaining access to 3rd and 4th level spells at level 5 and 7 respectively). A Sorcerer and Oracle has this progression delayed by one level (gaining access to 3rd and 4th level spells at level 6 and 8 respectively). If you multi-class into something that does not advance your caster level/slots, it delays the Character level you gain access to more advanced spells.

But yes, I'm mostly referring to Spell slots when I said delayed spell progression. Which is why I said something along the lines of it evening out in the end. Technically, at level 20, you lose out on two or three or your highest level spell slots (spread across 8th and 9th level spells). But that matters less than actually having a single slot of those levels. You would still be able to eventually cast that Finger of Death, but you would have to wait a couple more Character levels to gain access to it.

Caster level is still important but more for the Spell Resistance than damage. Who cares if at lvl 20 your Delayed Blast Fireball is landing for 18d6 vs 20d6? And your normal Fireball will still be capped at the 10d6 in either case. But the missing two levels for the purposes of overcoming Spell Resistance or using Dispel Magic is a much bigger deal than it initially appears. However, you can plan for that by using spells not affected by Spell Resistance like many Conjuration spells. And Greater Dispel Magic and Disjunction exist.

Even if the differences are negligible at level 20, the journey there is still important. Not having a level 4 spell available at character level 7 or 8 when a 'pure' caster would have it can be a pretty big deal. Multiclassing is all about trying to get as much as possible while sacrificing as little as possible. You have to decide for yourself whether a specific trade-off is worthwhile to you.

[Goblin King Jareth]

fox5s eredeti hozzászólása:

It's a bigger consideration in this computer game where you can actually expect to reach the upper levels.

I hear you and agree esp. about the capstone stuff, but my approach when given a system is to find the outer bounds of that system. If you want to limit yourself inside those bounds for RP and tabletop reasons, that is certainly valid and I do it myself all the time for RP jollies, but the system under discussion is this PKM+COTW MT build at the moment.

That said, I was just goofing around in the build editor. MT is a tough one because you have a lot of design constraint:

-The spells take up 1 slot level higher than usual which means you'd better abuse good low level spells being the main pain

-Tons more casts are not greatly useful for say, heals, nor buffs, they are most useful for damage due to numerous encounters.

-While not a show stopper, spontaneous/prepared split is a headache on half your slots built the usual way, alleviated slighty by cleric conversion to heals.

This strongly suggests good low level damage spells and on a sorc to double up on the power of many slots, that get around saves and resists, and keep us away from danger since it's a frail robe wearing MT. Also you can save dex by not needing touch spells if you make your DC high.

snowball
magic missile
burning arc

This suggests evocation or conj. I just did another deep dive on it in the build editor and the best I can do is 4 Empyreal Sorc/ 3 Eccli. This gives us 13 casts of magic missile and 6 burning arc when MT comes online at 8 at 22 wisdom. It even had a few skill points to start working on persuasion for an MC.

I really tried to make Oracle work because oracle has a revelation that gives it actual burning with a save for any fire spell, but that kind of technique put it online at 9 with oracle/gold dragon sorc (for 1 extra point of burn per die) 9 with only burning arc to start fighting with at just a few cast is awful. I even looked at reliquarian occultist, which is the only INT based divine caster but it is a hot mess.

I tried Oracle/Thassalonian too but it seemed messy, and I think Oracle opposition spells might be blocked too. The real showstopper is the CHA/INT split there. (and prepared magic missiles you can't even convert to cures...I feel sick bros)

Emp sorc can still drag around his anemic cleric siamese twin in his own body, convert the extra evocations to heals if needed and you're getting a cleric mashed together with a sorc in one party slot at the cost of all your skill points and some spell levels but a decent SAD blaster that should get exponentially better at 7+. Human sorc got enough feats to pick up all the spell focus DC stuff and acid metamagic to convert your burning arcs. Racks of metamagic burning arc is pretty good, and you can wayang spellhunter them for a free metamagic. Magical knack for the other to keep your sorc casts high on the way up. It's a nice utility blaster but that seemed the outer bound that I could find in PKM. Sexy build for Tristian with a Sarenrae theme, I'll probably run it at some point.

You could also go ice/acid and do DEX/WIS on a snowball build for ranged touch abuse but I think it's better to do maximized DC since you have the cleric CC and utility to mess with too. Snowball is going to lend better to different styles of class. Burning arc can be abused pretty well with meta and high dcs so that's a lot of precise blasting as your MT grows up.

Last thing: I have a strong suspicion you can do all these triple class backflips to get a blaster that heals OR take Kallikke, and make her a Water/Earth Kinetic Chiurgeon and have more blasting, and more heals (loaded up with paladin mercies even).

The meta constraint on MT is going to be that you're eating utility slots to have blasts in reserve, or you're not and carrying your anemic siamese buff twin around in your body. Kineticist seems to have a big advantage there by not having to make that choice and can just blast all day. There's also Havocker Witch though to possibly build an MT off of.

[fox5s]

If you insist on a single casting stat, try out the Feyspeaker Druid / Sorcerer combo. I like the cleric spell list better but the druid list is still good. Druids have Snowball and several other solid low level spells. Plus a decent number of spells that ignore SR (one of the things a Mystic Theurge is not good at overcoming). Feyspeaker does lose out on Converting spells to heals/summons though. And if since you are going MT anyway, get the Domain instead of the Animal Companion (since it will stop advancing past lvl 3) for even more spells.

[Goblin King Jareth]

fox5s eredeti hozzászólása:

If you insist on a single casting stat

Not trying to be confrontational but in the interest of mutually looking for the best use cases: Highest DC and most slots, which is what you're in MT for anyway. Eccli has the most cleric slots (barring oracle with their lower progression) with their double domain and bond item thingy. If you're not doing a full casting stat for the most slots why go MT in the first place?

As human I was able to boost the DC by a ton with all the DC feats starting on sorc also so DC wasn't an issue either. I quickly ran out of relevant feats even with elemental dc and tattoo.

Snowball is a little iffy because you kind of want a 14 dex for at least some ranged touch, detracting from your other stat minimums and 20 cast stat a bit. It's not bad though by any means, and it is level 1 compared to burning arc at 2, burning arc has a lot more longevity, use case, and upper limit than snowball I feel. Sorc/wiz also gets snowball so it's a wash vs druid, and if eccli bond item works on the higher level MT slots (can't think why it would not) it's actually wayyyyy better than most druid stuff to have another continual max level cast (invaluable on MT especially) Only if there is a druid utility you absolutely can't live without or you just love druids can I see it as MT. I admit to having a blind spot on them though I just don't like them much especially in this campaign. I think they're a powerful class in many ways, just not one I like to play, can't see any heavy synergy there with MT.

Storm Druid: maybe convert your prepared heals and buffs to some lighting blast? Mehhh lighting is the most resisted element in the game.

Blight druid: convert precious spell slots to weak summons...I'm running a master summoner right now with 13 max level pet casts of 1d3+1 monitor lizards (separate from spell slots) and an evolved eidolon, no other pet class can impress me anymore.

For reference, you can surround Lonely Warrior in the Lonely Barrow with an average of 30 monitor lizards, augmented with feat and a skald rage con song and some rage powers and they still die pretty fast since i think he may have cleave, lol. However these are cotw summon pets which are weaker than vanilla pets in terms of greatly reduced raw stats

[fox5s]

I can see how that line could have been taken as a jab. Feyspeaker Druid casts using Cha rather than Wis making it a possible option for pairing with Sorc to keep to a single casting stat. I did state that the I like the Cleric spell list better than the Druid spell list but we are just sort of spit-balling here.

Druids are... weird so I don't blame you for the blind spot. Their spells tend to control the battlefield more than a cleric's (Entangle and Spikestone for example) rather than do direct damage. They have some damage, it's just not what they are best at. Call Lightning, for example, is rather efficient for the spell slot compared to Cleric options at that level IIRC but doesn't have great upfront damage (okay overall damage but it's spread out over multiple rounds and actions). Also, some of the buffs are better. I'm specifically thinking of Barkskin because it lasts 10mins/level making it a more worthwhile cast for multiple fights compared to Shield of Faith at 1min/level, though at a higher spell slot.

I thought fire was the most common and therefore the most commonly resisted element. More things might be Lightning immune though. I could easily be wrong in both cases.

You can pair the Feyspeaker with a normal Arcane Bloodline Sorc to gain access to the Arcane Bond feature you were picking up from Ecclesitheurge and I think end up with the same number of spells, unless I'm missing a Class Feature somewhere.

Yeah, the Dex for Ranged Touch spells can be rough. But I think a Sorc wants Scorching Ray for second level spells (I haven't checked the Kingmaker spells for Sorc/Wiz in a long time so am not sure) so it might not be so bad. Just checked Burning Arc and it's not a bad choice rather than Scorching Ray. Depends on your caster level and how confident you are in your DCs vs ability to land that Ranged Touch attack. Burning Arc is prob a bit better more of the time.

Oh! Can confirm! I tried a MT on a playthrough a while back and the Arcane Bond feature can recover any level of spell from either class as soon as you get it.