The RNG in Pathfinder Kingmaker

[MR67]

Since the turn based mode was introduced, I've had more time to look at my rolls in combat and there is definitely something borked with the RNG system. Other people may beg to differ, and I'm not going to argue with them, but this is based on my experiences in this game.

Why is it that:

- Your characters seem to struggle to roll above 10 in most of their attack rolls in combat while the opposite seems to apply to the enemies?
- You seem to roll critical misses in nearly every combat (often consecutively) while enemies hardly seem to do this?
- Enemies almost always make their saving throws. Even when you target their weakest save category, they hardly ever roll below 11 on d20.
- Some enemies (eg various primal monsters) have a permanent blur effect. It's only supposed to be a 20% miss chance, but your characters seem to miss them because of this about 80% of the time.
- Your characters struggle to roll above 10 for skill checks as well, especially when trying to disarm traps. You literally have to ensure you're buffed to the nines when making skill checks of any kind otherwise you will almost always fail them.

This must be the only game where I've played over 1800 hrs and have not yet finished it. I really like a lot of things about this game, but the RNG (and to a lesser extent, the ridiculous stat bloating of enemies) ruins it for me.

Does anyone know if Owlcat has sorted out the RNG issue for Wrath of the Righteous? I'm really tempted to get the game but really don't want to have to put up with the same issues all over again.


I've attached a link to a screenshot where I got FOUR consecutive critical misses in a fight in Candlemere. What are the chances of this happening?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6c/d3/69/6cd3699bc3adf0d9098c6f4404c9ed4a.png

[dulany67]

Originally posted by MR67:

- Your characters seem to struggle to roll above 10 in most of their attack rolls in combat while the opposite seems to apply to the enemies?

RNG is not just for your characters, but the enemy as well. There is not one number generator for you and one for enemies. It sounds like you are unlucky. Or you are not good at building a character (or using mechanics) that overcome RNG. I'm not trying to be a ♥♥♥♥, but this thread is constant throughout all forums for games that use RNG.

My suggestion is that you stop looking for problems with RNG and start looking at ways to not be dependent on it.

[MR67]

@Dulany67 - thanks for the feedback. I hear what you're saying, and I have noted other commentators saying the same thing. However, in this game, you are not always in a position to ignore the RNG, i.e. early game when your skill checks/attack bonuses are low, or in some cases when the game throws some really high skill checks your way. I have been playing CRPGs for over 30 years now and this is probably the first one I've come across where the RNG seems to be an issue (maybe XCOM as well but that is a different category). A simple Google search reveals a lot of other folks besides myself are pointing this out, so it can't just be so-called "bad luck".

[InEffect]

And yet when it comes to the actual data the RNG falls into expected distribution. They don't use anything special. It's your standard unity mersenne twister iirc.

[MR67]

@InEffect - yes, the RNG most likely falls into the expected distribution when you include ALL the RNG rolls in this game, yes. However, if you just take the player's rolls alone, I expect it would paint a different picture. Why are so many people complaining about it otherwise? There was that one guy who ran a test in Lonely Barrow with Octavia's saving throws compared against the Lonely Warrior's saves when running through a Web spell, for example. Her d20 rolls averaged 6.something while his were 14.something. I can believe that.

Some examples from my most recent game (which I abandoned in disgust):
- The screenshot on my original post shows clearly my party got FOUR consecutive critical misses (natural 1s on d20). What is the chance of that?
- There's that part where you fight some primal monsters just before you leave the goblin fort. Two owlbears who were side by side made about 8 consecutive Will saves in a row between them. Both saved against 2 Glitterdust spells from Linzi (they needed I think 9 or 10 or higher), both saved against a Fear spell from Harrim (both rolled 18), one saved twice against a Litany spell from my Inquisitor, and they saved against something else as well. Will is their weakest save yet they passed EVERY single roll, with not one single digit roll on the dice.
- My animal companion Leopard gets 3 attacks a round and most fights, at least 1 roll in its first attack round will be a natural 1.
- The person who dishes out the most damage in the party (Ekun with the Devourer of Metal bow) gets 3 attacks per round (4 when hasted). It seems he regularly rolls at least half his attacks below 10 on d20, and this is most noticeable when he keeps getting misses against more powerful enemies.
- The party fights a bunch of primal giant spiders in the caves near the entrance to Lamashtu's Womb. They have a blur effect on them (which should be a 20% miss chance) and yet my party is missing MOST of their attacks with the "MISS - CONCEALMENT" message. Why? Because the die rolls are always so low that even the d100 roll for this check keeps falling under 20.

If you're happy with the RNG, then good for you. I think it's not working properly and I hope they do something about it for Wrath of the Righteous, as it's Kingmaker's biggest problem, IMHO.

[bullse]

My best advice to you then, OP, don't play any game that has/have RNG, period.
Piss RNG in Solasta.
Piss RNG in BG3.
Piss RNG in XCOM.
Piss RNG in Tyranny.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Play Chess maybe. Oh wait.....

[InEffect]

There is no RNG that matters past level 5 even on unfair. Or more like there's not RNG we can't negate. There's a bit of it in skill-checks early and there's quite a bit of it pre-5 on unfair. Below unfair RNG doesn't matter wholesale. The game is about negating random. Party rolls in combat don't affect anything meaningful. Worst case the combat will last one or two more rounds than it should, that's about it. Not exactly crippling.

[Ozeko]

People notice when they miss more than when they succeed in RNG. Have a save at a skill check and keep reloading the game to see what rolls you get. 50% chance to roll 11 or better. If you do this 100 times it should be close to 50%.

[Dixon Sider]

Why would turn based give you more time to look at the numbers? That would give you less time to look at the numbers because it would take you longer to generate them lol.

[dr.rosenrosen]

i don't believe either side without source and spending a while under a debugger.

this game didn't feel very sketchy to me but i have no proof either way that there wasn't the occasional special casing or just plain bugs in either their code or libraries they used.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by corlandom:

i don't believe either side without source and spending a while under a debugger.

this game didn't feel very sketchy to me but i have no proof either way that there wasn't the occasional special casing or just plain bugs in either their code or libraries they used.

I casted phantasmal killer on the craig linhorm or w/e its called and was getting 5% 20s almost on the dot. Never a double 20 though X.X

After about 20 20s without a double I gave up lol.

[MR67]

Originally posted by bullse:

My best advice to you then, OP, don't play any game that has/have RNG, period.
Piss RNG in Solasta.
Piss RNG in BG3.
Piss RNG in XCOM.
Piss RNG in Tyranny.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Play Chess maybe. Oh wait.....

Did you even read my post properly? I have played most of these games and never had issues with their rng. Always someone who has to come along with a smarmy comment at some point.....

[MR67]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Why would turn based give you more time to look at the numbers? That would give you less time to look at the numbers because it would take you longer to generate them lol.

Quite the opposite. Since turn based is effectively pausing the game inbetween each participant's actions in combat, instead of you doing it manually during real time combat, you notice the numbers more.

[dr.rosenrosen]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by corlandom:

i don't believe either side without source and spending a while under a debugger.

this game didn't feel very sketchy to me but i have no proof either way that there wasn't the occasional special casing or just plain bugs in either their code or libraries they used.

I casted phantasmal killer on the craig linhorm or w/e its called and was getting 5% 20s almost on the dot. Never a double 20 though X.X

After about 20 20s without a double I gave up lol.

there have been exploits in gambling rng where people screwed with the code to make it pay out if you used a particular series of bets and coins..if people want to cheat "random" systems in certain situations they can.... be it for slots thievery or just to make a monster a little stronger just this one time...

a more interesting mechanic to me is should combat even be "random". if you're a swordmaster with flaming eyes of doom and sonic breath should the monster get a chance? is that realistic?

i can think i am a tough guy but odds are if i walk into an octagon with a mma champion there is little randomness in the expected outcome no matter how much I wish to believe in the lucky punch.

maybe it's ok that some encounters are not really "random" and a monster is supposed to whoop your silly butt for challenging them 99/100..

not sure... but when you press on things and say what would be a "good" system for handling combat in an rpg i think it's a more interesting question than "rng good" or "rng bad".

[MR67]

Originally posted by Ozeko:

People notice when they miss more than when they succeed in RNG. Have a save at a skill check and keep reloading the game to see what rolls you get. 50% chance to roll 11 or better. If you do this 100 times it should be close to 50%.

Point taken, but I have definitely never gotten 4 critical hits in a row in this game, that's for certain! Maybe I'll try reloading a skill check 100 times to check the rolls when I'm feeling really, really bored......

[MR67]

Originally posted by InEffect:

There is no RNG that matters past level 5 even on unfair. Or more like there's not RNG we can't negate. There's a bit of it in skill-checks early and there's quite a bit of it pre-5 on unfair. Below unfair RNG doesn't matter wholesale. The game is about negating random. Party rolls in combat don't affect anything meaningful. Worst case the combat will last one or two more rounds than it should, that's about it. Not exactly crippling.

Fair enough, but you can't negate natural ones on attack rolls or saving throws, no matter how high your bonuses are..... Well maybe you can if you have the Luck domain power.....