Like playing with a GM that doesn't understand CR

[Danny G]

Do any of the DLC fix stat bloat in the game? This would be a great game to play and explore the crazy number of race class combinations but the game on normal has so much stat bloat and unwinnable encounters that it just ruins it for me.

[NamelessOne]

7th level fighters are CR6. At 2nd level you can be expected to fight CR 6 encounters with a 15 point buy 4 man party. The level adjustments for being a large party with above high fantasy point buy brings that encounter well within normal table top encounter design.

And your party members aren't level one unless you are using mercs, and that's only if you avoid leveling before going inside Oleg's. And if you are more than 2 hours into it, you are level 3 or 4 even.

[Ragnaman]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

20 point buy is +1 average party level. 25 buy is another+1 IIRC. 6 party members is +1 iirc, might even be +2. CR=APL is a normal encounter, on the easy side. Boss fights are CR=APL+3 or 4. Most monster templates only add around+1 CR. PC levels on monsters are depending on monster role, some classes are only CR=1/2 level. Monster HD level does not translate one for one on CR, many are CR=3/4HD/level (or lower) humanoid Npc levels are CR=level-1.

Believe it or not the encounters on normal difficulty are not really outside of the default rules for parties of that size, build budget, and item budget. The only real issue is the trash mobs are more numerous than normal. Can make some areas tedious.

isnt MC 25 points and every merc 20 points in the game ?

[Immortal Reaver]

Originally posted by Ragnaman:

isnt MC 25 points and every merc 20 points in the game ?

Most companions have more, I think only 3 of them have 20 points buy, rest have 25-32 point buy and Valerie gets even more after her final companion quest. Some pregenerated characters also have more, for example Herdwig is 32 point buy.

[NamelessOne]

Yup, and that's why the game doesn't really go outside of the CR guidelines much. People fail to account for the party adjustments.

[JCServant]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

7th level fighters are CR6. At 2nd level you can be expected to fight CR 6 encounters with a 15 point buy 4 man party. The level adjustments for being a large party with above high fantasy point buy brings that encounter well within normal table top encounter design.

And your party members aren't level one unless you are using mercs, and that's only if you avoid leveling before going inside Oleg's. And if you are more than 2 hours into it, you are level 3 or 4 even.

From https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/
Determine Average Party - I'm 1.5, but I'll round up to Level 2
Add 1 if six more Party = Ok...three total

So my APL is 3.

Challenge Rating (or CR) is a convenient number used to indicate the relative danger presented by a monster, trap, hazard, or other encounter—the higher the CR, the more dangerous the encounter. Refer to Table: Encounter Design to determine the Challenge Rating your group should face, depending on the difficulty of the challenge you want and the group’s APL.

Difficulty Challenge Rating Equals
Easy APL –1
Average APL
Challenging APL +1
Hard APL +2
Epic APL +3


Enemy Lv 7 fighters, 2,400xp each x 2 = 4,800 xp

That's equal to a CR8 encounter. A CR 6 would be EPIC for my party. CR8? GG, Kingmaker. You win. If you want to use the same criteria for baddies as players, you can assign them APL 6 (Basically Level 7 party minus one for two members). That's still a huge disparity... APL 3 vs 6. Unless the enemy mobs are poorly optimized, I'm in for an 'Epic" encounter at best.

Mind you, any GM worth his salt also understands that these CRs thingies break down at higher levels too because monsters/baddies have abilities, defenses, etc that lower level players simply are not equipped to handle yet.

And I'd love to know how people hit level 4 in two hours into this game without some sort of speed running tactic. Even if that's true, I still believe it's extremely bad gameplay balance to have CR8 random encounters less than 1 day travel from the beginning area in an open world game...and even worse idea to spring it as a surprise attack where those enemies start within immediate striking distance on 'normal' difficulty. Poor design is poor design. It doesn't mean that the game isn't fun, great, or whatever each player think it is. I've enjoyed a lot of games that have some issues in design. But me, personally, I get urked when random encounters on 'normal' in a beginning area are categorically 'beyond epic'... and that's not an opinion. That's an objective observation based on the pen and paper rules that the video game uses as a strong foundation.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by JCServant:

From https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/
Determine Average Party - I'm 1.5, but I'll round up to Level 2
Add 1 if six more Party = Ok...three total

So my APL is 3.

Does APL not count the +2 from your point buy in?

[NamelessOne]

Your party should all be level 2 by leaving Oleg's. Apl 3. Your party is higher point buy, APL 4. The old rules for DND 3.5 was 4 for epic, my bad on that. But the monsters didn't really change and the PF classes are much more powerful. I've been GMing pf since 2008, and Dnd before that starting in at the release of 2nd ed and I'll tell you straight up the +3 encounter is not "epic" it's more like a sneeze and you miss it. In favor of the party.

[JCServant]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by JCServant:

From https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/
Determine Average Party - I'm 1.5, but I'll round up to Level 2
Add 1 if six more Party = Ok...three total

So my APL is 3.

Does APL not count the +2 from your point buy in?

So, players do not have CR's, par se. You take their APL to get an idea of what CR encounters they can handle. The only math, aside from averaging out the party level, is to add or subtract 1 if the party is above six or below four. I've not seen an official rule that says "If you give 25 point build, you (GM) should adjust all encounters up by 2CR to compensate."

However, pondering that as a possibility is terrible. From a gameplay design perspective, and knowing Pathfinder monsters and classes... giving players a 25 point buy (instead of a 15 or 20) in exchange for an increase of 2 CR's in designing combat encounters is a HORRIBLE idea. A level 4 six man party fighting a CR 10 Rakshasa is going to have their proverbial rear handed to them. (Going with your logic here... APL = 4 + 1 for party size + 2 for 25 pt buy = 7. "Epic/acceptable" encounter is 3 higher or CR10.). Common Rakshasas have 25 AC and SR, along with a ton o'HPs. Level 4 party will not only be short in skills and abilities, but also gear needed to get through those defenses.

[JCServant]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

Your party should all be level 2 by leaving Oleg's. Apl 3. Your party is higher point buy, APL 4. The old rules for DND 3.5 was 4 for epic, my bad on that. But the monsters didn't really change and the PF classes are much more powerful. I've been GMing pf since 2008, and Dnd before that starting in at the release of 2nd ed and I'll tell you straight up the +3 encounter is not "epic" it's more like a sneeze and you miss it. In favor of the party.

But it's a CR8 encounter, or five higher than the APL 3 ... Even if I take it up to 4 for 25 point buy in (A horrible idea as I detail above, aside from not being PF RAW), that's still 4 difference. For a rando encounter, its a terrible idea on 'normal' difficulty.

[NamelessOne]

The random encounter charts in the core rules generally don't account for party level in the first place. More than a few have overwhelming encounters on the highest rolls.

[JCServant]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

The random encounter charts in the core rules generally don't account for party level in the first place. More than a few have overwhelming encounters on the highest rolls.

Sure. In the Kingmaker book, for example, there's an encounter with Shambling mounds (CR6). And in that book, there's no early opening adventure that takes you to level 2 real fast. So, if you have a party of 4 with 15 point build (APL1) and you run into Shambling Mounds, which are REALLY stealthy (+16 in forest!), it's pretty much TPK. That's where the DM comes in to either reroll that encounter, or give players ample opportunity to check for the threat before, you know, killing a PC or three rather quickly. Or maybe an old druid that gives them warning if they treat him nice. SOMETHING. Of course, a computer program cannot really improvise like that to help manage the threat of bad rando encounter roll. That's why, there should be a simple check via a line of programming that says "If difficulty is set to normal or easier, and rando encounter => 3 CRs above the APL then reroll" Boom. Done.

[Immortal Reaver]

Originally posted by JCServant:

However, pondering that as a possibility is terrible. From a gameplay design perspective, and knowing Pathfinder monsters and classes... giving players a 25 point buy (instead of a 15 or 20) in exchange for an increase of 2 CR's in designing combat encounters is a HORRIBLE idea. A level 4 six man party fighting a CR 10 Rakshasa is going to have their proverbial rear handed to them. (Going with your logic here... APL = 4 + 1 for party size + 2 for 25 pt buy = 7. "Epic/acceptable" encounter is 3 higher or CR10.). Common Rakshasas have 25 AC and SR, along with a ton o'HPs. Level 4 party will not only be short in skills and abilities, but also gear needed to get through those defenses.

With Epic rules, my party probably could, since piercing bypasses it's DR, there is a way to kill it even with low level party. 25 AC is like 35% to hit Rakshasa and with it's 16+ to hit equals to 5% chance to get hit but it attacks 4 times per round, most problematic would be Suggestion and Crits.
Of course this is with rested party.

[JCServant]

Originally posted by Immortal Reaver:

Originally posted by JCServant:

However, pondering that as a possibility is terrible. From a gameplay design perspective, and knowing Pathfinder monsters and classes... giving players a 25 point buy (instead of a 15 or 20) in exchange for an increase of 2 CR's in designing combat encounters is a HORRIBLE idea. A level 4 six man party fighting a CR 10 Rakshasa is going to have their proverbial rear handed to them. (Going with your logic here... APL = 4 + 1 for party size + 2 for 25 pt buy = 7. "Epic/acceptable" encounter is 3 higher or CR10.). Common Rakshasas have 25 AC and SR, along with a ton o'HPs. Level 4 party will not only be short in skills and abilities, but also gear needed to get through those defenses.

With Epic rules, my party probably could, since piercing bypasses it's DR, there is a way to kill it even with low level party. 25 AC is like 35% to hit Rakshasa and with it's 16+ to hit equals to 5% chance to get hit but it attacks 4 times per round, most problematic would be Suggestion and Crits.
Of course this is with rested party.

It has to be both piercing AND good. Your chances of being able to afford a "Good" aligned weapon at level 4 is pretty darn low. Though the latter isn't hard to get if you have a cleric who has prepared "Bless weapon" or an items that does the same thing. But, if you only have that set up on one character, while you MIGHT hit with a lucky hit, you're going to need more than luck to get through that 100+ hps it has. You'll need multiple party members with a cleric who has hopefully blessed your weapons right before the start AND that you have good luck with the rolls AND that the baddie whiffs a few attacks (And since he gets 4 a round....welll......)

Bottom line ... If you're 'Batman" levels of prepared, and can approach him on your terms, you have a very, very small chance. If you weren't prepared... because, you know, your DM pulled it up on a random encounter roll and immediately starts the fight with Killer Kitty Man 30' from you. Well.... GG. Think your running away? I hope you're on a horse... he will chase you down with his 40' speed throwing lightning bolts on the way, lol.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by JCServant:

You know the funny thing about fighters? A level 1 fighters with a BAB of +1 and STR 16 looks pretty much same as a level 7 fighter with BAB of +7/+2 and 18 STR (and two more feats adding another +2 to hit). So...yeah. Of course, I can see their stats and whatnot assuming I make enough relevant knowledge checks, but given that random encounters often place you within 30-60' of an enemy, you often do not even have THAT opportunity before melee starts (much less ranged attacks).

Thing is, it's not hard to pull way outside of their AB/AC by level 2 on normal. Especially if you are comfortable with the system. Or just CC and kill. The good thing about a level 1 fighter is you can speed and coup de grace them. Doesn't really matter what stats they have. Kinda been a thing since adnd.

[Mercenaru]

I came across this thread and...I find it funny that I don't understand anything from it.

I never played a tabletop DnD, just heard rumors and how it's like ; and now reading all this "BAB, CR, APL" and other terminologies and I am like "WTF is all that ?!" ^^

By this point I think, I have better chance reading in chinesse.

I played Pillars of Eternity 1, and I studied skills and attributes a lot, to get their meaning. I also study mid-fight the combat log, to see what happens. But PoE never mentioned these crazy terms. :D