Swarms are BS

[Charlemagne]

They can only be harmed by bombs or AOE spells. However, they are very hard to hit and attacks will usually miss, meaning if you are lucky only 1 hit from splash (nothing in the case of spells). Alchemist and acid bombs supposedly do 1d6 hits in the next round, but not to swarms even with a direct hit. Supposedly torches can harm them, but when I hit them with a torch it says they are "immune".
So typically each swarm will take about 7-8 bomb near misses, or spell direct hits, to kill. Add to that, they incapacitate your characters by simply touching them so that character can no longer toss bombs or cast spells. If your characters are bunched like in the typical dungeon, they can incapacitate multiple characters.
One would think that swarms should be a lowly creature which poses a modest challenge and only a threat for careless players. Especially since you find them right away when you are low level. As they are they're more like mini bosses.

[Frostfeather]

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of posts around the interwebs on this issue. Look for them here, on Reddit, GoG forums, etc for any ideas and discussion about them. It's really been discussed to death for years.

But... Owlcat redesigned the Fangberry cave to make it easier to avoid fighting swarms if your group isn't ready to do so at that point. So if that's where you're at, just go back later. If you're talking about other swarms, well, I guess you'll need to make sure you have something in the group to deal with them. Alchemist bombs or area spells, and I think they usually are vulnerable to either Fire or negative energy.

And for what it's worth, Owlcat also made it easier to fight swarms in Wrath on the easier difficulties. So they really did listen to all the people who gave this feedback in the past.

[Mansen]

You start out with torches - Which are prime weaponry against swarms. The game even tells you this. And the cave trip gives you a metric ton of bombs.

[Charlemagne]

Yeah I went with 18 bombs and came out with 2. The mage hit the swarm maybe once with her acid. When the torches hit a swarm, it said "immune".
I know how to defeat them and have done it, but it's still BS.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

Yeah I went with 18 bombs and came out with 2. The mage hit the swarm maybe once with her acid. When the torches hit a swarm, it said "immune".
I know how to defeat them and have done it, but it's still BS.

Torches suck against swarms. Also don’t bother with cantrips. Only area effect does 50% extra. Unfortunately you still need to hit touch ac with bombs. But bombs are the best options anyways, and everyone in the party should be using them at the same time instead of torches or cantrips. Only exception though is burning hands spell which is better at least.

[razvedchiki]

get good.

[Charlemagne]

Originally posted by razvedchiki:

get good.

You haven't even bothered in reading the posts have you?

[99Random]

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

Originally posted by razvedchiki:

get good.

You haven't even bothered in reading the posts have you?

Nope, being the 10,001 person to whine about something that has a solution just gets you ridicule.

Yes, it was a dumb design decision
Yes, there IS A TOOLTIP THAT TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO
Yes, it is terribly annoying
Yes, save scumming to make sure enough bombs hit to kill sucks
Yes, this is a known Pathfinder PnP mechanic

[Charlemagne]

Well, I'm new to the game so I can't know it's been discussed to exhaustion. Still, it's good to know that others feel the same about it.
Because swarms SUCK.

[heskyttberg]

The "only" way to deal with swarms on unfair, can be done from level 3.

1. Torches is a joke, 1 fire damage if you can hit 27 ac or something stupid like that. So only natural 20s
2. bombs. touch AC is a bit about 5-7 lower then normal but swarms still like 18-20 touch AC.

There are two ways to deal with them on unfair without getting grey hairs.
6 sylvan sorcerers, burning hands and able to position so you get at least 3-4 off at same time, no save only reflex will always hit and thankfully swarms have low hp.

But the only safe way and no save scumming I found is as follows:
Maske sure you have Jaethal in party.

// Unfair cheese
1. Make her kineticist-kineticist, need 2 levels in it.
2. Go to spider cave, stealth every one else at entrance.
3. Walk her in so out of range from other member fire at a spider.
4. Go out for a walk, get a pizza, watch an episode of favorite program, play other game.
5. First 3 takes 5 minutes or so.
6. Repeat for next 3.
7. Still leave everyone else at entrance.
8. go to entrance to room with swarms shoot a spider. This will take longer since swarms only take damage from her normal attack, so have auto attack on fire blast, same as bombs full damage to swarms. Wait again eventually she won the initiate check enough times to hit the swarm 3 times to kill it.
9. Repeat 8 until all are dead.
10. This is really boring, but in my opinion it is better then reloading for 3+ hours or spending too many resources.

There is another cheese way of doing it.
Do not level your mc, make 5 kineticists at level 1, go clear spider cave, with them.
This takes some save scumming attack from stealth at least 4 on same spider/swarm.
If anyone dies go get a new one until you cleare the cave.

[jsaving]

Originally posted by Charlemagne:

So typically each swarm will take about 7-8 bomb near misses, or spell direct hits, to kill. Add to that, they incapacitate your characters by simply touching them so that character can no longer toss bombs or cast spells. If your characters are bunched like in the typical dungeon, they can incapacitate multiple characters.

Swarms are really the first foe in the game that require sound tactics and it is very common for that to be an early pain point in the game. But the good news is that if you are experiencing 7-8 bomb near misses and then getting incapacitated, then you are not using those tactics so things can improve for you in the future.

Use spells like burning hands and sound burst which are designed in large part to be effective against swarms. Make sure flask-throwing characters have the precise shot feat and change your scouting/positioning decisions so you are not seen while figuring out where swarms are and can make initial attacks before they begin moving toward you. Kite them so they aren't damaging/incapacitating anyone and can be hit by flasks even by party members who don't have the precise shot feat. When all else fails and melee begins with them, which should be a rare situation, think through exactly which character has the most survivability and make sure only that character gets in melee range, while party members with precise shot continue to throw flasks.

Or you can not do any of that and just postpone the swarms until Octavia can cast fireball. Swarms require a lot less strategy to beat once you reach that point in the game and Owlcat deliberately designed the spider area so you can easily grab what Bokken needs while leaving the rest of the area for later, if you would rather not adjust your tactics. Good luck!

[Dreamfall]

Save before you go in there, buff party, you should have basic buffs going in (either memorized, or through potions, and scrolls... utilize these things a lot in the game lol), have everyone get in defensive stance, focus all non-caster companions on the spiders, and have one person either bombing the swarm, or using torch. If you are using torches you will need healing potions. I'm not saying you won't have to rest afterward, and that it's not a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for the Fangberry Cave as it is early in the game, and you barely have any spells but it's doable. Something I did as well was I just gave one person a fire spell because I knew it wasn't likely going to be my last encounter with them (not mention you should have fire or acid for trolls (that includes any mob with the word troll in it lol).

[MagnusGrey]

There are lots of scrolls and wands that provide AOE as well. Its a tough challenge if you take it on right away but once you reach midgame swarms arnt really any more dangerous than anything else.

[Charlemagne]

The first time I tried Fangberry, it was the first thing I did out of Oleg's, being the first quest assigned to you etc. etc. Now I usually wait until the party is level 3 to go in. I go with lots of bombs and some (mostly useless) spells, and yes, of course it's doable. I'm not complaining that I can't do it, but of the critters themselves. The design. The concept. I never played PnP Path, so I wouldn't know if it's that way in that version too. In which case, swarms are also BS in PnP. TBH I was just venting, because I know that of course they will not be changed (although someone mentioned *some* changes Owlcat had made in the past?).

[MagnusGrey]

You used to have to fight the swarms to reach the fangberries and were given fewer fire bombs.

[Charlemagne]

Originally posted by MagnusGrey:

You used to have to fight the swarms to reach the fangberries and were given fewer fire bombs.

Yeah, thanks I know. I go for the swarms because of a sense of completeness. There are also some fine prizes in there.
What I feel is kind of wrong is that, IMO a direct hit with a bomb should be more effective. A swarm can take several direct hits (let alone near misses). Hitting them is so hard anyway it should be more gratifying. Like "Hah! Got 'em!" Just saying.