Should all melee attacker get Shatter Defense?

[Samseng Yik]

Consider we need to get both weapon focus and dazzling display first.
Is it worth the investment? First time play a "Pathfinder" RPG

Also some questions about dazzling display
1) My party consist of pure class 18 str slayer, Linzi, Harrim, Amiri, Valerie, Reg.
Who should be the one performing the DD (thus give up the DPS) ?

2) Linzi Bard 8 will access to Dirge Of Doom, does this means I can use Lingering Performance toggle on and off to shaken enemies 3 turn without anyone DD ?

[Ilja]

You can scare enemies from level 1, without Dirge of Doom. Intimidate allows you to threaten one enemy at the time. You can even set it as default attack. That is pretty much what Linzi and Tristian are doing in my game most of the time on early levels - and Linzi keeps doing it at later levels.

I wouldn't give Shatter Defense for everyone. Your tank will probably just want to walk straight up to enemies and get the incoming beating.

1. Depends which one of them has highest Persuade. Linzi would be brilliant, because she is a background character with high charisma. If you have not raised here Persuade, then pick the character than has high points in that skill.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

Consider we need to get both weapon focus and dazzling display first.
Is it worth the investment? First time play a "Pathfinder" RPG
2) Linzi Bard 8 will access to Dirge Of Doom, does this means I can use Lingering Performance toggle on and off to shaken enemies 3 turn without anyone DD ?

1) Only at heroes that deals damage. Melee or ranged. I used it even at my Arcane trixter and alchemist. It means that enemy has base 10 defense against my beam and bomb touch atacks.
2)Yes. Dirge Of Doom is the best way becouse it completly igoners all enemy save throws And you can cast it as fast action (so you can do something else that round)
With Lingering Performance you can cast buff aura on your team then switch to Dirge Of Doom in the same round. So both will work

[Samseng Yik]

Originally posted by Ilja:

You can scare enemies from level 1, without Dirge of Doom. Intimidate allows you to threaten one enemy at the time. You can even set it as default attack. That is pretty much what Linzi and Tristian are doing in my game most of the time on early levels - and Linzi keeps doing it at later levels.

I wouldn't give Shatter Defense for everyone. Your tank will probably just want to walk straight up to enemies and get the incoming beating.

1. Depends which one of them has highest Persuade. Linzi would be brilliant, because she is a background character with high charisma. If you have not raised here Persuade, then pick the character than has high points in that skill.

I not too sure right now how to force enemy attack the tank.
I know the tank should "walk at the most front".
I guess tank should just focus DD too?

[Babbles]

yes

oh wait- is this the old game/ then no

[Ilja]

Note that Shatter Defenses isn't the only good perk. Enemies vary. While some of them have high Dex, some of them just have extremely high armor.

Sunder Armor is an excellent feat for a melee character. The big part of the perk is that it actually removes the armor for a while, allowing you companions to take the benefit as well.

Sunder Armor is one of those perks that requires dedicated user. CMD can grow quite high. But if you have a dedicated armor smasher and someone... say a melee rogue or knife master next to them with Shatter Defenses (after either someone has successfully intimidated the enemy or uses Dazzling Display)... that is one way to deal with the pesky highly armored magical enemy.

If the said rogue already has Bewildering Injury then our armored horror of DOOM is in a bit of trouble.

Lacking a rogue, slayer is a good option as well.

[Samseng Yik]

Ok understood.
So the whole point of DD is just to get shatter defense, especially if I have bard Dirge.
I will take a look on sunder armour too.

[jsaving]

I typically take shatter on all physical DPS characters, even those whose primary mission might be something else (like tanking). But the main questions are whether you will reliably use abilities to inflict the shaken condition on your foes, whether you will build your party well enough to reliably land it, and whether you will do it in a way that ensures your high-DPS characters aren't the ones wasting an action triggering the effect.

A sensible way to take all of these things into account is to have your bard pre-buff the party and then sing dirge of doom at the beginning of each battle. A bard's DPS is pretty low so you aren't losing much on the damage front, and dirge doesn't require a die roll to succeed.

There are tolerably good alternatives, like frightful aspect. But you won't be able to cast it until fairly late in the game, leaving a lengthy period of time where DD/shatter are just two wasted feat slots on your high-DPS characters. Which is fine if you build for endgame, but personally, I would carry a bard in midgame for dirge even if you eventually plan on swapping them out once your full casters get frightful.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by Ilja:

Note that Shatter Defenses isn't the only good perk. Enemies vary. While some of them have high Dex, some of them just have extremely high armor.

Sunder Armor is an excellent feat for a melee character. The big part of the perk is that it actually removes the armor for a while, allowing you companions to take the benefit as well.

Sunder Armor is one of those perks that requires dedicated user. CMD can grow quite high. But if you have a dedicated armor smasher and someone... say a melee rogue or knife master next to them with Shatter Defenses (after either someone has successfully intimidated the enemy or uses Dazzling Display)... that is one way to deal with the pesky highly armored magical enemy.

If the said rogue already has Bewildering Injury then our armored horror of DOOM is in a bit of trouble.

Lacking a rogue, slayer is a good option as well.

90% of all high AC enemies have natural armor. And Sunder armor doesnt work on it =\
And sunder armor can (and most of the time will) be resisted

[Ilja]

Originally posted by maximum997:

90% of all high AC enemies have natural armor. And Sunder armor doesnt work on it =\
And sunder armor can (and most of the time will) be resisted

True. This is why I like to have a rogue in my party. Either my own character, or the pesky goblin. They Bewildering Injury can be a real asset, when dealing with hard target - provided that others can keep enemy busy enough for rogue to get his/her stabs in.

[Frostfeather]

It really depends on the difficulty level and how you play. For higher difficulties, especially in real time, it can be a convenience... but it's never absolutely needed.

And in Wrath or Call of the Wild Kingmaker, you might want to consider having a Skald handle the Dirge as it's probably going to be better for a melee-heavy group.

[Samseng Yik]

OK, most important is now I knew the Shatter Defense is worth multiple feat prerequisite based on the feedback, it must be that good.

[Ilja]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

OK, most important is now I knew the Shatter Defense is worth multiple feat prerequisite based on the feedback, it must be that good.

It is. However, note that there are 2 ways of doing this.
- Standard for one. Just shakens the enemy. Doesn't frighten them.
- One level of Thug for another one. Frightens the enemy.

Frightening enemies can be really useful. For a moment mob runs away from your guys and allows you to cast heals or other spells in relative safely.

On other times a horde of frightened enemies can run around and might drag one (or more) of your own guys with them, alerting extra enemies - if you are not paying enough attention.

Pick the one you prefer most, or give one character the normal and dual class the other one as thug, so you can choose between the two.

[jsaving]

Thug is really, really bad if you are a skilled player because you waste time chasing enemies you could have killed faster if they weren't running away from you. It's too bad Owlcat doesn't let you toggle frightened off so you can get the thug's duration increase without the frightened condition.

[Rex is back, baby!]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Thug is really, really bad if you are a skilled player because you waste time chasing enemies you could have killed faster if they weren't running away from you. It's too bad Owlcat doesn't let you toggle frightened off so you can get the thug's duration increase without the frightened condition.

That's why interceptors exist. Pets and barbarians make great interceptors! a hasted anyone too!

Embrace your inner Bear Guiles: adapt, overcome, improvise.
Surround the foes so when they're feared, AoO destroy them!
Use the fearer as a kiter.
Bull rush!
Pit magic or rough terrain magic.

There's many solutions to fight fear!

[Ilja]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Thug is really, really bad if you are a skilled player because you waste time chasing enemies you could have killed faster if they weren't running away from you. It's too bad Owlcat doesn't let you toggle frightened off so you can get the thug's duration increase without the frightened condition.

That toggle would be useful.

This is also why I have two guys using Dazzling Display. One with thug level and another one without it. Sometimes it is a good thing to scare enemies to run away and give you some space, but other times it is inconvenient.