building a better bard

[igor140]

flooding the forum!

so i've read a couple places that bard are pretty much required for the late game. the thing is, i really don't like linzi. i think she's an AMAZING character, but she's built like a writer, not an adventurer. her stats aren't stellar, her archtype is functional but boring, and i have to waste entire turns in combat waiting for her tiny legs to keep up.

first off and very globally, i'm having a very difficult time discerning from the text what is an actual PERFORMANCE and what uses the performance count. i've discovered they're not the same thing, and they CAN be used concurrently.

i built a test thundercaller, and was surprised that the "normal" song and the "stormcall" song are indeed different and cannot be used at the same time (without that feat)... but that thundercall CAN be used while i'm singing something else... but i don't see any differentiation in the wording of the features to indicate that. similar things with the healing/ instant buff abilities.

related to that, is that "double bard song" feat worth it? (does that exist in the base game or was it added by CotW?) given the 3x performance extension and the Extra Performance feat, i don't expect i will run out very often, even if it does cost three per active turn...

ANYWAY i'm looking at hiring a mercenary, and comparing archetypes. the archeologist doesn't appeal to me much; i didn't like my middle school science teacher much.

so that leaves thundercaller and flamedancer... and (because i have CotW) dirge and the hybrids.

BASE BARD
pros: versatility?

cons: that second song seems REALLY boring to me. a boost to skills that caps out at +5? why? for the passive perception/ trickery checks? i dont' seem to have much difficulty with those.

overall: ... i guess? is this somehow better than i'm thinking?

THUNDERCALLER:
pros: CALL MOTHER****ING LIGHTNING BOLTS FROM THE MOTHER****ING SKY!! i mean, that's just awesome. free damage every turn? sounds good. even better, the much harder hit with a solid chance to stun everyone in a respectable radius! (and of a damage type that is very seldom resisted.)

cons: i know the random bolts are not extremely powerful, but they are in addition to whatever other action you take that round. i've also learned (the hard way from those damn wisps) that many enemies resist lightning... still, there are other songs and other features to pull from for those fights. also, massive loss of skills bonuses.

overall: currently what i'm leaning toward*

FLAME DANCER
pros: fire resistance is very nice

cons: fire resistance only covers one element, and there are plenty of other ways to do that with more versatility and less loss of more valuable features. unless the end of this game changes drastically, i can thinking of several different ways around the "see through fire" thing rather than wasting bard performance on that.

overall: meh? i guess i was hoping for a melee fighter who sang while lighting everything around him on fire. oh well

DIRGE (CotW)
pros: pulled straight out of Weened at Bernie's. necromancy has some really good spells that would round out a bard quite well.

cons: actually pulled straight out of Weekend at Bernie's 2 :( also, the loss of well-versed? not sure how big a deal that is, but doesn't seem major.

overall: allows for the creation of a halfling bard dressed in bright clothes named Miguel... but that has the same problem as Linzi (except i could create a unit with better stats : /)

*THUNDERCALLER/ DIRGE
pros: all the benefits of both thundercaller and dirge...

cons: i'm assuming there's no way to sing THREE songs at once...

overall: honestly, this one seems like too much. an army of zombies that increases as the enemies are struck dead by random lightning strikes OR be chased into the circle of death...?

[InEffect]

1. Get val
2. F1/Brd11/DD4/Booter4
3. Ovinrbaane
4. Oak
5.???
6. Profit!
problem solved.
As to the subs, it's pretty straight-forward. Bards make good melee characters and bad casters, so base bard is the best bard. Dirge is pretty much a base bard with some extra bells and whistles that ultimately don't matter. Thundercaller would be passable, but it doesn't have a dirge and doesn't do anything base bard doesn't, so meh.
PS. Having multiple songs running was fixed some time ago, so the only songs that matter is courage and dirge before you get your hands on frightful aspect.

[igor140]

i'm confused... doesn't the thundercaller... call thunder?

if anything, i don't see what the base bard does above TC and dirge (and especially above the hybrid)

[InEffect]

Because you can't sing the thunder song and AB song at the same time. As such thunder is utterly useless. Active ability is ok, but you gotta stack a lot of casting stat for it and then it's still not that amazing. And we need dirge by level 9 for the shatter.

[igor140]

ah. i didn't realize that was such a big deal.

there are a bunch of statuses i'm not familiar with in this game, and i guess that's something i need to learn. like, i don't really know what "shaken" is.

well, i suppose i'll make it a dirge bard then.

[Frostfeather]

You don't need a Bard for any part of the game, but they are really nice to have. Especially the higher the difficulty you're on.

I like Thundercaller or Arrowsong Minstrel the best for most of my groups. Thundercaller in turn based makes it easier to take advantage of Stuns (best if you have a Sneak Attacker to take advantage of them - Thundercaller + Ranged Slayer is a favorite combo of mine). And they're just plain fun while being relatively straightforward to use.

Arrowsong Minstrels can cover some spells like Flame Arrow that a Wizard/Sorc may not want to take, or may not want to spend spell slots on. And they contribute to damage pretty well while still buffing the group.

Dirge I've used in an undead/necro themed group before one time. Their DC bonus to fear effects seemed more useful than the Dance of the Dead, but I already had undead summoning covered elsewhere in the group.

As for Virtuoso Performance, it never seemed worthwhile to me. By the time you get it, your Bard is probably busy enough already, and using their 4th level spells on Greater Invisibility or something anyway.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by igor140:

ah. i didn't realize that was such a big deal.

there are a bunch of statuses i'm not familiar with in this game, and i guess that's something i need to learn. like, i don't really know what "shaken" is.

Just an fyi, you don't "need" Dirge of Doom. Many enemies (vermin, undead, constructs etc) are immune.

And most Skalds get Dirge even if your Bard doesn't, if you really want it.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by igor140:

ah. i didn't realize that was such a big deal.
there are a bunch of statuses i'm not familiar with in this game, and i guess that's something i need to learn. like, i don't really know what "shaken" is.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/Conditions/#Shaken
it's an ok debuff in itself, but real reason we want it is for the shatter that most, if not all, physical damage dealers want to get at level 9-ish.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Because you can't sing the thunder song and AB song at the same time. As such thunder is utterly useless.

Unless, and hear me out here, you have multiple bards in the party ;)

I've got 3 bards in one party. Its great.

[NamelessOne]

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

Originally posted by InEffect:

Because you can't sing the thunder song and AB song at the same time. As such thunder is utterly useless.

Unless, and hear me out here, you have multiple bards in the party ;)

I've got 3 bards in one party. Its great.

Robin's minstrels...

[InEffect]

Thing is, we don't need 3 bards. Once frightful is a thing that we have we only really need a song of courage. That said, bard is a solid melee, so having 3 of those is not the end of the world.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

Unless, and hear me out here, you have multiple bards in the party ;)

I've got 3 bards in one party. Its great.

Robin's minstrels...

Good eating on Bards.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Thing is, we don't need 3 bards. Once frightful is a thing that we have we only really need a song of courage. That said, bard is a solid melee, so having 3 of those is not the end of the world.

Sure, but its fun. Just like having a party of halfling barbarians is fun :D

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

Sure, but its fun. Just like having a party of halfling barbarians is fun :D

Sure thing, I made the remark more so for others reference than to change your mind or to tell you that you're playing the game wrong. Also, I'm all about educated janky setups.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

Sure, but its fun. Just like having a party of halfling barbarians is fun :D

Sure thing, I made the remark more so for others reference than to change your mind or to tell you that you're playing the game wrong. Also, I'm all about educated janky setups.

Oh, wasn't having a go at you. Just doing my usual thing of promoting halfling barbarians. Everyone should have one!

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

Oh, wasn't having a go at you. Just doing my usual thing of promoting halfling barbarians. Everyone should have one!

Totally agree. They make the best castle wall decorations. I hear it's all the rage in pitax this season.