Dragon shift build

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

So i saw some videos and some skilled their sorcerer and mage really hard on str and less on cha and int probably because they got a higher bonus when transformed.Wouldn’t it make more sense like in bg where dragons had their own set stats?I mean a sorc should focus on cha but if you would do that you would probably be very weak when transformed….what would be your advice?

[Mork]

Dragonkind is not that good simply because of the huge size of the dragons.

But the safest way to build one would be probably as a melee sorcerer. You then just pick up the Dragonkind spells at spell level 6,7 and 8.

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by Mork:

Dragonkind is not that good simply because of the huge size of the dragons.

But the safest way to build one would be probably as a melee sorcerer. You then just pick up the Dragonkind spells at spell level 6,7 and 8.

But how should be the balance.If i would go on str 16 i think cha should be still the focus as a sorcerer.Would the transformation still be good as well if you would let your strength at 10 or something?I don’t feel that comfortable to play a sorcerer with a high str skill.You could also buff the str with items and spells as well without putting one point into that stat

[Mork]

Something like this
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post41

[Goblin King Jareth]

The weakness of the melee caster build (excluding magus builds, I'm talking traditional style) is low BAB. This is because sorc/wiz are 1/2 BAB classes. Every point of str and other + attack feats (and traits if you have CoTW) are therefore gold for them as you level up if you are into making gishes (and I am). If you take two evocation (or conj/necro/illusion for controller style casting) DC focus feats on the way up this can take care of your basic casting needs even with a starting cha of 17. You need DC to land spells of the save or die variety, but you need it more at the end for the spell caps of 18 CHA/INT level 8 spells, and 19 CHA/INT level 9 spells. You have some wiggle room with save or suck spells, or magic missile that always lands (bring dispel for shield) Therefore you can put this off till later levels if you intend your sorc to melee at any point, your casting will be slightly watered down but still useful.

Of course you are looking at EK and DD prestige classes for fighter BAB, more feats, and + STR from dragon powers for the traditional ways to increase BAB as well.

For example, I have booted my Reg out of the Magus slot (because my MC is a Sword Saint) and made him into a glaive wielder gish for the second line. I'm using total respecs, and CoTW but I keep him blue dragon bloodline and chaotic evil so as not to get too far away from his lore. I take two CoTW traits that give +attack to flank, and +attack to something you damaged already (orc racial trait). Starting I dumped wis and int to 7 (fits Reg's personality), 18 str, 17 CHA, rest dex and con evenly. Can't abuse monk since he's chaotic, so fighter first level, then sorc until EK at which point his BAB will increase faster and more feats. Evoc focus, greater focus, mage tattoo, and glaive weapon focus keeps him very useful in the midline. I'll take outflank early as I can since my MC and Amiri already have it and it's 4 attack for a simple flanking. He also scales very nicely with str since he brings plenty of enlarges as sorc. I'll stop him at 20 str and switch back to CHA till end game. The fact of the matter is melee is more valuable than casting through a lot of the game because melee is available every single fight whereas casting eats into your time limits for rests but I think even with a proper build 20 str won't gimp him as a caster in later levels.

Either way the availability of +stat items in this game means it shouldn't matter that much in the long run between 17/18/19 str vs caster stat start, but I tend to skew str on my gishes starting out due to carry weight and the "snowball factor" of the less you rest in the beginning, the more gold you're going to have to jumpstart your kingdom. High casting stats just don't mean much until you actually have a lot of spells to throw in the first place in later levels.

[Blind Reverend]

Better to go dragon disciple with some Sorcerer/monk/paladin levels (scaled fist 1 for the charisma AC/ and paladin level2 for the charisma bonus to saving thrwos)and focus on primary str and secondary cha. Take all your sorcerer spells for buffing your disciple to oblivion. You get "dragonkind 1" as a skill at dragon disciple L7, and "dragonkind 2" at dragon disciple L10.

For casters I found it more effective to polymorph buffed pets into dragons. They are more a pain for your enemy and less dangerous for your caster.

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

If you never put one point into strength and focus on charisma you can still buff yourself with a spell and also take equipment which buffs your strength if you go full sorcerer

[Natural Love]

Don’t waste any point on strength.You find so many items which boost that stat plus you can also cast spells to boost it as well so focus either on charisma or int depending which mage class you are playing

[vysionier]

Yeah except different types of bonuses stack, but similar types don’t. Belt of str doesn’t stack with str spell they are both enhancement type. Dragon shift spell gives a size bonus to str. If you start with 16, you could get 30str in the end if you don’t put anymore points into it, but if you start with 10, you’d have 24 max by end game.

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Yeah except different types of bonuses stack, but similar types don’t. Belt of str doesn’t stack with str spell they are both enhancement type. Dragon shift spell gives a size bonus to str. If you start with 16, you could get 30str in the end if you don’t put anymore points into it, but if you start with 10, you’d have 24 max by end game.

With all the items i have 18 strength and without them i have 10 so putting points in there is just a waist because you are also a caster

[vysionier]

Originally posted by Jt:

Originally posted by vysionier:

Yeah except different types of bonuses stack, but similar types don’t. Belt of str doesn’t stack with str spell they are both enhancement type. Dragon shift spell gives a size bonus to str. If you start with 16, you could get 30str in the end if you don’t put anymore points into it, but if you start with 10, you’d have 24 max by end game.

With all the items i have 18 strength and without them i have 10 so putting points in there is just a waist because you are also a caster

Yeah but I thought he wanted a shifter build?? Wouldn’t that mean making the best shifter? In that case, build bare minimum cha for casting purposes, (up to 18 cha including items for lvl 8 spells by lvl 20) pick sorc then dragon disciple 10 levels then sorc. Focus on buffing and shape shifting spells. It may not be the very best, but it’s both simple and fun! Also you’ll get to shift into dragon form a lot.
Also a possibility, at least on pnp, you can play vivisectionist then pick dragon shape 2 as a lvl 6 ‘spell’ you’d get a better bab progression that way at least, and you could use mutagen to increase str further.

[Mork]

It depend on what you want to do. If you want to be a dragon just for the look, then sure you don't need STR. But if you want to hit thing and be a useful physical damage dealer, then you gonna need a relatively high STR.

A sorcerer build for it can easily get 40 STR...

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by Mork:

It depend on what you want to do. If you want to be a dragon just for the look, then sure you don't need STR. But if you want to hit thing and be a useful physical damage dealer, then you gonna need a relatively high STR.

A sorcerer build for it can easily get 40 STR...

When i transform i have 24 str and im buffed only by items to lvl 18 and i could use spells as well to take it even further.Im making a decent amount of damage and im still focused on charisma like the sorcerer should.I want to be a shapeshifter but i also want to be a good caster

[vysionier]

Originally posted by Jt:

Originally posted by Mork:

It depend on what you want to do. If you want to be a dragon just for the look, then sure you don't need STR. But if you want to hit thing and be a useful physical damage dealer, then you gonna need a relatively high STR.

A sorcerer build for it can easily get 40 STR...

When i transform i have 24 str and im buffed only by items to lvl 18 and i could use spells as well to take it even further.Im making a decent amount of damage and im still focused on charisma like the sorcerer should.I want to be a shapeshifter but i also want to be a good caster

Fair enough, just realized you are the OP, so it looks like you got what you wanted :) but imagine how cool it would be doing dragon shape 3 with normal str at 24, +4 from Dragon disciple, +10 from spell, and +6 from belt. That would be 44 str. That’s +17 to hit and damage. With !6! Natural attacks! With 12 BAB that’s +29 to hit. With blind sight. Just sayin’!

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Originally posted by Jt:

When i transform i have 24 str and im buffed only by items to lvl 18 and i could use spells as well to take it even further.Im making a decent amount of damage and im still focused on charisma like the sorcerer should.I want to be a shapeshifter but i also want to be a good caster

Fair enough, just realized you are the OP, so it looks like you got what you wanted :) but imagine how cool it would be doing dragon shape 3 with normal str at 24, +4 from Dragon disciple, +10 from spell, and +6 from belt. That would be 44 str. That’s +17 to hit and damage. With !6! Natural attacks! With 12 BAB that’s +29 to hit. With blind sight. Just sayin’!

I think back in bg days all the transformations had fixed stats regardless your human skills but could be wrong

[Drake]

Originally posted by Jt:

Originally posted by vysionier:

Fair enough, just realized you are the OP, so it looks like you got what you wanted :) but imagine how cool it would be doing dragon shape 3 with normal str at 24, +4 from Dragon disciple, +10 from spell, and +6 from belt. That would be 44 str. That’s +17 to hit and damage. With !6! Natural attacks! With 12 BAB that’s +29 to hit. With blind sight. Just sayin’!

I think back in bg days all the transformations had fixed stats regardless your human skills but could be wrong

Pathfinder is not ad&d 2E, so some rules are different.