What's up with the random overleveled monsters?

[Matt Way]

Been having a lot of fun with the game, but one thing keeps annoying me to no end. At the Swamp Witch's Hut, doing the quests for the area and not having issues with the monsters, then I walk a corner or jump a bush and I get ganked by 3 "enraged monstrous owlbears" that wreck everything in like 2 seconds... I mean +26 to hit and 2d6+24 damage multiple times a turn. I'm level 6, this is harder than the boss of the area.

That's just and example though, the game has so many of these seemingly random extremely overpowered encounters that seem like they would be bosses of the area but they're not, they're just there... why?

It's just weird. Been running tabletop games and playing them for years now, but you'll rarely find an adventure or a module that does this.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by Nero:

You died very fast in BG if you just stumbled around. PoE had areas you weren't supposed to clear the first time. Leaving Good Springs in New Vegas to the north? Good luck fighting Death Claws...
.

EXCEPT the game(NV that is) is very clear when voicing the dangers of going north through dialogue, PoE didnt randomly throw enemies *vastly* more powerful than anything else in a given map at players checking a corner either, and deadfire added an indicator so people knew what they were getting themselves into due to the more open nature of the seas

i dont really recall any warnings of "hey, this tiny corner past this brush has owlbears with dragon-like strength that are vastly more powerful than the rest of this entire map, maybe it'd be better to turn back!"

Originally posted by Nero:

Stop acting like an entitled brat.

maybe chill? are you okay bud?

[Pogey-Bait]

My issue, as a relatively new player is not that they are necessarily there... It's more that I have zero clue as how to tell how strong they are unless I throw a rock at them and piss them off.

Then they kill me.

Am I missing something? I have a rogue with great stealth, but I see absolutely no way of getting a feel for how strong the creatures are or if I can handle the fight.

[Pogey-Bait]

Hmm, 3 ferocious Owlbears... Maybe I should go poke on in the butt with a pointy stick to figure out if I can handle them or not?

Seems like something Steve Irwin would do, but it gets my party killed every time and then I have to save scum.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Pogey-Bait:

My issue, as a relatively new player is not that they are necessarily there... It's more that I have zero clue as how to tell how strong they are unless I throw a rock at them and piss them off.

Then they kill me.

Am I missing something? I have a rogue with great stealth, but I see absolutely no way of getting a feel for how strong the creatures are or if I can handle the fight.

Well characters with lore skills (in this case nature), can use the inspect button in main UI (or press Y) to divine enemy info. Depending on party member lore skill levels, you will be able to identify things like level, stats, immunity, attack bonus, AC etc. A good tell whether something may be way out of your league is when you have a maxed lore stat and inspect mode shows nothing for that creature. It's probably 10+ levels higher than you in that case.

As for taking on monsters and NPCs a lot higher in level, you either need really good meta builds or a good crowd controller in your group. A high DC conjurer sorcerer that can lay down heightened Grease, Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill trivializes most fights when your paryy is buffed correctly. In some cases you can just throw a normal stinking could + delay poison and your party can go to work without getting hit. Or wipe entire encounters with a simple sinking + cloudkill.

All that being said, I had to use heighten Stinking Cloud and Glitterdust and came back to do that encounter around level 8 or 9. I was initially level 7 when I first got to the zone and my party BAB, spells, AC (even with my Sylvan pet) were just not good enough to suffer through it.

There's a reason for the high level Owlbears there too. They're protecting something in a later quest and with 20/20 hindsight makes sense. The Owlbears are meant to be taken down at that time when you're clearing out the Dire Narlmarshes (Levels 9-11) There's a lot of that where locations are revisited frequently. It's a bonus if you can take down these higher low level encounters early which is partially unintended but possible.

This game actually approaches enemy encounters similar to Fallout 1/2 and Baldur's Gate. You could get into some really bad situations and it was fun knowing that just because an area is "sort of" on the beaten path, doesn't mean the devs designed it so you can roll over it the first time you visit. Adds a sense of danger and anxiety to the game. :)

[Near Gravity]

Originally posted by panda_express411:

This game isn't the same as the table top. There are enemies that will be too powerful for you.
Just leave and come back later when you level up more.
Would the game really be fun if you could just steamroll every enemy you encounter? I don't believe so.

It actually is more or less the same. What it isn't the same as, is your generic MMOs where progression is through leveled areas, or some linear single player games where you never revisit an area.

A lot of gamers are used to games which are scaled to your level, and every encounter is meant to be beaten at the level you encounter it. Not every game, but often guides walk you through those games, and give you boundaries, and a lot of players rely on them to know where to go and when.

Personally, I think strategy guides are a plague on modern games; generally because they give players a quick, easy instruction booklet for beating the game, instead of allowing them to figure it out themselves. It's a choice; one most gamers opt in to.

This means most gamers today are unprepared to adapt to a game, or figure it out themselves; instead, they will go and look for a walkthrough or strategy guide, and use it as a reference throughout their gameplay.

I think that detracts from the experience. And I believe the fact that most developers encourage this leads to design choices which are not necessarily beneficial to gameplay. And for that matter, the common problem of content which is meant to be replayed until it is beaten also becomes the Norm. Either refer to a strategy guide that tells you how to beat it the first or second time; or fail once or twice and figure it out.

Beats unwinnable scenarios though. Not by much mind you.

Players should be able to treat every situation as potentially lethal, and determine how to deal with it, if at all; not rush headlong into everything without thinking because they've been trained to, or know full well they're going to have to reload several times to beat everything anyway, so why not trip the trap to find out exactly what it is, then decide on the next reload if you're going to deal with it now or later.

And don't tell me you don't do that. At least the first time, because there is no way of knowing, (without a strategy guide), that those creatures are overpowered, even with knowledge of the game, because if they were what they appear to be, they wouldn't be, or any way of knowing that they are for a quest later. Only the Devs know that.

You can't build a game full of inconsistencies, and not surprise your players. They do it to surprise you. "Oh look, got you; maybe next time," - wink wink.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by Balekai:

There's a lot of that where locations are revisited frequently.

while true, most encounters that lead to revisit arent there in the 1st place, but get added later, plus in general kingmaker unlocks sections of the map with game progres, no varnhold and beyond till a specific chapter, no glebenon and pitax till later still, clearly they didnt want people running into late game encounters from the get go

but beyond "strong enemy in low level area", these are owlbears with strength comparable to adult dragons, owlcat has a thing for making owlbears ridiculously powerful

Originally posted by Balekai:

A good tell whether something may be way out of your league is when you have a maxed lore stat and inspect mode shows nothing for that creature. It's probably 10+ levels higher than you in that case.

not that reliable imo

[Near Gravity]

Originally posted by Pogey-Bait:

My issue, as a relatively new player is not that they are necessarily there... It's more that I have zero clue as how to tell how strong they are unless I throw a rock at them and piss them off.

Then they kill me.

Am I missing something? I have a rogue with great stealth, but I see absolutely no way of getting a feel for how strong the creatures are or if I can handle the fight.

You're not missing anything. Just go play the DLC. The Devs intentionally made almost the entirety of it ambush and surprise, with extraordinarily difficult encounters in many cases. Things popping in randomly, then popping out, illusions that reveal enemies when they trigger, and sometimes don't. Monsters which just spawn, die, then get replaced by new spawns, that also die, and are also replaced by new spawns. Traps behind traps, behind traps.

It fits the theme mind you, but it's almost impossible to know what you're up against initially, and later that just changes to: Fey, or Mimics and Slimes, or maybe nothing, or possibly warwisps, or one of the others but with a talking head, (which is kind of like a war wisp.)

They want to keep you on your toes and catch you off guard, as much as possible. Often with encounters that you shouldn't even be in and have no way of winning until much later, that you get cutscened into by a Dev Trap.

Why? It's a trap, that's why.

No cynicism here... That's a very real game design choice that some Devs like to make use of. Frustrate, antagonize, and make people feel something, even if it is frustration and anger, because they will probably keep trying to beat it and make it easier, but don't let them. If it gets easy, or feels to relaxed, they will get bored, so don't let it happen.

...sort of thing. Realistically, it has merit, but taken to extremes it can be a bit much.

[Hobocop]

I wouldn't have a problem with it if retreat was a valid option. But unless I missed something, legitimately retreating isn't a thing in this game, only reloading a prior save. Once you get into combat, you're pretty much stuck in until one side dies.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by TaKoDancer:

people are weird, plus owlcat really messed up the stats on these owlbears, if they were 3 SLIGHTLY stronger than normal owlbears it would be a neat challenge(granted we should have the ability to know they are there before entering the very small area they are in, a perception or knowledge nature check, as i dont recall anything like that)

people saying "just come back after a few levels!" are sorta ignoring that running away isnt really an option, either reload, beat them, or die

https://i.gyazo.com/ded258eaadf858d943ee9d3c430e982f.png (not my picture)

that is simply silly and not fun, thats about as much strength as an adult red dragon(and higher BAB)

I'm more interested why people fight the grater enraged owlbear with a lvl 1 valerie and expect to win. Because there is no way she'd have 32 AC otherwise. She should be inching to 50 at that point.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by InEffect:

I'm more interested why people fight the grater enraged owlbear with a lvl 1 valerie

Originally posted by TaKoDancer:

(not my picture)

just wanted to showcase the owlbears bonker stats and none of my saves were in that point

[InEffect]

Originally posted by TaKoDancer:

Originally posted by TaKoDancer:

(not my picture)

just wanted to showcase the owlbears bonker stats and none of my saves were in that point

the stats are not bonkers really(as far as this game goes. It's an elder red dragon by stats though). Poor thing won't even be able to hit 46AC.

[Matt Way]

Originally posted by =NK= Col. Jack O'Neil:

And yeah, they are just too stupidly over powered they could wreck all sorts of mythical and elder monsters.

What I don't get is how people defend a absurdly overpowered, out of place encounters that require meta gaming?

I think that you pretty much sum up what I mean the best, it's not about losing to the enemy, it's about how out of place they feel given the level and environment design and how the game effectively forces a reload, breaking the game flow.

You see, an Owlbear in pathfinder is a strong animal (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/owlbear/), but that's about it. It's CR peaks around 4 and there's a handful of variants that make it a bit stronger. The thing it's not is an Adult Red Dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic-red/adult-red-dragon/) and the three owlbears you find in the woods are about as strong as those.

It's not about "coming back to defeat them later", it's about using enemies and encounters that make sense. If it was 3 black dragons I'd have scouted, then backed off. It was just 3 owlbears. If I was playing on Last Atzlan I'd have to start over because someone gave owlbears dragon stats.

This seems to be a common problem, weirdly. There is a tiny area featuring a "mature leopard". It's CR is 10. What? How and why? It's not a legendary beast like Tuskgutter who's got a whole quest dedicated to them, yet it's strong enough to kill multiple Tuskgutters at once...

It feels weird when common animals are given this high stats and levels as other encounters, like "Ancient Iron Golem" guardians of the ruins are then, since they're statted like those in the pathfinder books, same level and strength as a leopard.

Similarly, some of the loot fails to make any sense in the context we're given. Most of the time it's fine, but occasionally you find something that should by no means be there. I just found "Heart of Ira", in a barrel by a peasant's house, a legendary artifact worth more than the village it's in. How did it get there? Why did I get it without a fight or anything? It's an extremely OP item that makes no sense to be lying about a peasant's village, especially one with a wizard with a detect magic spell...

[InEffect]

if you want a power trip where your OP party rolls over common mobs - go for normal and below. Nobody forces you to play on higher difficulties. All difficulties do is giving your enemies crutches to have a slim chance of killing you. Same for "out of place encounters" why can't some insanely potent things(for your CR) be around your questing area? it's not like the world should conform to your power level.

[Matt Way]

Originally posted by InEffect:

if you want a power trip where your OP party rolls over common mobs - go for normal and below. Nobody forces you to play on higher difficulties. All difficulties do is giving your enemies crutches to have a slim chance of killing you. Same for "out of place encounters" why can't some insanely potent things(for your CR) be around your questing area? it's not like the world should conform to your power level.

I don't think you understand what the problem is... it's not about strong monsters, it's about using lore/level appropriate monsters as the threats. Nobody's complaining about "insanely potent things", really, it's about conveying the threat with appropriate encounters instead of using a reskinned owlbear with stupidly op stats.

It's like playing DnD and then having your level 20 party die to a housecat at a pub. Then, when everyone complains, you just say oh it's a "lv 20 enraged mutagen-infused epic housecat", it totally makes sense for it to be there, it's a city and housecats live in cities".

It's not about the threat, it's about threat assessment and level design.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Matt Way:

I don't think you understand what the problem is... it's not about strong monsters, it's about using lore/level appropriate monsters as the threats. Nobody's complaining about "insanely potent things", really, it's about conveying the threat with appropriate encounters instead of using a reskinned owlbear with stupidly op stats.

how fun it would be to fight dragons all game? Also there are difficulty sliders. if you want appropriate stats it's weak and slightly weaker or something like that on the sliders. Also don't use any actually good gear give yourself +1 at level 7 or something and so on.

Originally posted by Matt Way:

It's like playing DnD and then having your level 20 party die to a housecat at a pub. Then, when everyone complains, you just say oh it's a "lv 20 enraged mutagen-infused epic housecat"

I'd call it Greebo. Nobody would be even mad(except for Greebo).