Are summons worth it?

[Elymnir]

Hi there, lords. It's my first playthrough in this game and, even though I understand next to nothing in terms of stats, feats and such (even after reading plenty of guides), I'm having a really good time with this game.

I followed a druid (feyspeaker)/slayer build that looked like fun and that has a good focus on summoning. I am now level 14 and just finished Rushlight Tournament, so my main character is pretty well developped, but the summons have been frankly dissapointing since the beginning of the game, even with feats like superior summoning. Summoning multiple creatures results in them quickly diying, and "lone" summons, even though they live longer, can't hit anything. Actually, I think I can count on one hand the number of time, in 100 hours, a summon connected instead of a miss.

Now, as per title: is summoning worth it? Or maybe is there a way to make it worth it?

I'm thinking of ditching this build and respec and fiddle a bit. Still something like druid/slayer, but with a better focus on long-range damage and/or support instead of summoning.

[Raggle Fraggles]

I believe summons are mostly used as meat shields, and Animate Dead would be among the better meat shields. So on that note, should be feasable to have a long range dmg dealer and throw up some meat shields to create distance between you any anyone who tries to get too close

[jsaving]

Summoned creatures are intended to be about as strong as a normal spell of their level, which means you aren't typically going to see your summoned creatures routing the game's tougher enemies. If that's what you are expecting then you should definitely switch to a different build.

An interesting wrinkle is that animate dead is indeed the game's best summoning spell, and also has the virtue of being affected by absolutely no feats. So all you're looking to do in an animate dead build is get as many spell slots as you can, perhaps by becoming a mystic theurge.

[InEffect]

Druid has exactly 2 decent summoning spells. Creeping doom and elemental swarm. Neither benefit from investments into conjuration.
And overall the only summoning spell that's good throughout the game would be animate dead, and that doesn't benefit from any feats either. Clerics cast it at level 3, so literally any cleric is a better summoner than anyone in the game.

[Mortis]

There are some other summons which can be quite good if used correctly: (hama)dryads and axiomites. An army of 18 axiomites can be lethal for the enemy and for you.

[dulany67]

I have a cleric Herald Caller which can put over 30 skeletons on the screen if the battle lasts long enough. But even then, their purpose is much more about CC and tarpitting. It's powerful but not necessarily fun.

[InEffect]

well, summons can't hit anything either way and when they do the damage is negligible, so animate dead does exactly what summons are for.

[NamelessOne]

The things that makes summons worth building around aren't in this game. In PNP there is a cleric archetype that gets inspiration as per bard. With the alternative channel abilities able to buff the summons and the amounts that you can summon with superior summons it's like a small army every round.

Then there is the actual summoner class. A pet class whose pets are fully customized with monster abilities and a random assortment of bonus limbs. And gets summon spells as a class feature in addition to having a strong spell list.

[Stink Bug]

“Summon _” line of spells suffer quite a bit in this game even on normal difficulty unfortunately for a variety of reasons.

First you lose the versatility of choosing what kind of creature(s) to summon (Though if you look at the pnp lists Owlcat generally chose the best all-around options from what creatures they had available in-game). Second, despite the inflated stats of enemy creatures the summons seem to follow their pnp’s counterparts. Third, they’re not considered “allies” by the game logic and won’t be subject to many of your buffing spells. Fourth, all summons are bad at following the party and you have no way to control them (you can use handle animal or speak to relevant creatures in PnP). Combine all that with the long casting time (especially in turn-based mode).

I hope Owlcat takes these things into consideration for Wrath. Though not sure how they’ll address the first issue with the current UI, even in their current forms they’re unwieldy. Temple of Elemental Evil used radial submenus that worked well but that was a turn-based only game.

[Elymnir]

Thanks a lot for the advices. So what I can gather so far is that best summon is animate dead and the rest could be good but with a lot of efforts.
One other problem I think about just right now is that I play almost exclusively in turn-based mode. But if I summon an entire army, this will make fights even longer and that's another downside to me.

[Mortis]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

The things that makes summons worth building around aren't in this game. In PNP there is a cleric archetype that gets inspiration as per bard. With the alternative channel abilities able to buff the summons and the amounts that you can summon with superior summons it's like a small army every round.

Then there is the actual summoner class. A pet class whose pets are fully customized with monster abilities and a random assortment of bonus limbs. And gets summon spells as a class feature in addition to having a strong spell list.

A bard can buff summons in this game with his songs (inspire courage). That's +4 damage/+4 to hit at level 17. I never use summons without a bard.

[NamelessOne]

You can speed up their turns in turn based by hitting end turn during their activation

[NamelessOne]

Originally posted by Mortis:

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

The things that makes summons worth building around aren't in this game. In PNP there is a cleric archetype that gets inspiration as per bard. With the alternative channel abilities able to buff the summons and the amounts that you can summon with superior summons it's like a small army every round.

Then there is the actual summoner class. A pet class whose pets are fully customized with monster abilities and a random assortment of bonus limbs. And gets summon spells as a class feature in addition to having a strong spell list.

A bard can buff summons in this game with his songs (inspire courage). That's +4 damage/+4 to hit at level 17. I never use summons without a bard.

I didn't think the summons had a green circle, if they have a yellow they can't get buffed.

[Mortis]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

Originally posted by Mortis:

A bard can buff summons in this game with his songs (inspire courage). That's +4 damage/+4 to hit at level 17. I never use summons without a bard.

I didn't think the summons had a green circle, if they have a yellow they can't get buffed.

They will get buffed. Check the combat history. You can see the attack bonus of your summons.

[Dixon Sider]

Summons are great if you know how to use them. There are some deadly "once per battle" enemy attacks in this game that I do not want my tank to eat on her best day. Trying to eat those attacks with a summon is a very elegant way of playing outside of the box.

[Stink Bug]

Originally posted by Mortis:

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

I didn't think the summons had a green circle, if they have a yellow they can't get buffed.

They will get buffed. Check the combat history. You can see the attack bonus of your summons.

Is this the case for the vanilla game? I know some mods change summon allegiance to ally so they can benefit from buffs and I don’t remember bard song working on them (the bless spell didn’t either I recall).