Half Plate vs. Full Plate

[Melchor]

they are both heavy armor types.

full plate stats:
9 AC
-6 armor check penalty
35% arcane spell failure
1 max dex modifier


half plate stats:
8 AC
-7 armor check penalty
40% arcane spell failure
0 max dex modifier


how does this make sense? did everything but the AC stats get turned around or something?

it looks like full plate is supposed to have 9 AC but -7, 40%, and 0 on the other stats, and half plate is supposed to be the better one in terms of mobility with 1 less AC etc.

[jsaving]

If they cost the same then you would be correct, but they don't. With full plate you are paying for an objectively better product.

[Melchor]

Originally posted by jsaving:

If they cost the same then you would be correct, but they don't. With full plate you are paying for an objectively better product.

isnt that why there are masterwork and standart items?

it just makes logically no sense, and from a game design perspective aswell.

the more armor youre wearing, and the heavier it is, the more its supposed to hinder your mobility.

as far as i can see, every other armor type follows this logic of allowing you to apply a higher dex modifier the lighter the piece of armor is, and with lower protection values.

half plate isnt as protective but less restricting as full plate, so it should make sense that it grants 1 max dex modifier etc.

it really just looks like this was a mistake by the devs and they accidentally swapped around the stats of the items except for the AC values.

[Ghowsak]

it comes from the 3.5 system it is based on.

Basically half plate is made and sold as it
plate armor is custom made for the user - hence the radical higher price but overall better stats

[Melchor]

Originally posted by Ghowsak:

it comes from the 3.5 system it is based on.

Basically half plate is made and sold as it
plate armor is custom made for the user - hence the radical higher price but overall better stats

wow, that is weird. i didnt remember 3.5 having such janky design.

i know there were a lot of exploits in that system, and thats why they tried to change it, but i dont remember it having weird quirks like that.

thanks for the answers anyways.

[Wither]

Forget armor, go ac monk.

[Wither]

You can even carry tw shield.

[jsaving]

Originally posted by Melchor:

it just makes logically no sense, and from a game design perspective aswell.

the more armor youre wearing, and the heavier it is, the more its supposed to hinder your mobility.

You are mistaken that more armor is necessarily heavier and also mistaken that heavier armor necessarily hinders mobility more. Whether those things are true depend on many factors including the shape of the underlying pieces and the flexibility of the mesh that holds the pieces together. Many armor craftsmen lack the skill to make masterwork items so Pathfinder also gives you the option to pay for increased mobility by purchasing full plate if you so choose. You really need to mention in your post that full plate costs twice as much as halfplate, because omitting that creates the misleading impression that half plate simply is a ruleset glitch instead of an intended feature.

It's also worth mentioning that other types of armor like the chain shirt also offer more mobility in exchange for a higher price.

[Corridian]

half plate is of poorer craftsmenship per the 3.5 rules. Heavier, thicker in some places, and awkward. Full plate is in theory tailored to the wearer, where as the half plate is manufactured for the heavy foot soldiers and not the lord and knight types. roll with it. Go full plate or chain or monk up, though you can have an indecently good AC using bracers and dex and such as a spell caster. can always leather up and drood out for the shape shifting as well. Have fun!

[Melchor]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Originally posted by Melchor:

it just makes logically no sense, and from a game design perspective aswell.

the more armor youre wearing, and the heavier it is, the more its supposed to hinder your mobility.

You are mistaken that more armor is necessarily heavier and also mistaken that heavier armor necessarily hinders mobility more. Whether those things are true depend on many factors including the shape of the underlying pieces and the flexibility of the mesh that holds the pieces together. Many armor craftsmen lack the skill to make masterwork items so Pathfinder also gives you the option to pay for increased mobility by purchasing full plate if you so choose. You really need to mention in your post that full plate costs twice as much as halfplate, because omitting that creates the misleading impression that half plate simply is a ruleset glitch instead of an intended feature.

It's also worth mentioning that other types of armor like the chain shirt also offer more mobility in exchange for a higher price.

i mean you also have to think about this from a gameplay perspective.

all of those concerns are relevant to level 1 characters.

but dnd characters dont just stay at level 1, where they have to decide if they spend 50 gold on a full plate or 10 gold on a chain shirt.

for most of the gameplay it wont matter if they spend 100 gold on a piece of equipment, or 10 gold.

so they basically designed a few pieces of armor that are stat wise worthless for like 95% of the game. its just bloating the item pool with useless equipment.

the whole point of armor check penalties, and max dex modifiers is to balance armor pieces and AC in your game out against dex bonuses of your characters, so lightly armored heroes with a high dex can reach similar AC bonuses as heavy armored heroes with low dex, and the chances to get hit by an enemy deviate by not more than 15% to 20% on average from character to character.

from a gameplay perspective its really weird and jank design to make equipment types, that completely lose their value past level 1.


from a realism perspective, as far as how well the armor fits you, it would make just as much sense that a half plate, or any piece of armor for that matter could be specifically taylored to your proportions.

i dont see how a half plate couldnt be custom made to fit someone exactly the same as a full plate.

i would have thought this in particular is covered by the masterwork property. making any piece of armor 100 gold more expensive, but custom made for your character.

[Tuidjy]

First of all, do not look at any of this from a realism point of view. AD&D does not. Leather armor as described makes no sense, they made chainmail less cumbersome to wear than full plate, and their price ranges are bugfискing nuts.

Second, half plate is described by AD&D in a weird way - as if it is full plate with some parts removed. That's not the case. Half-plate still covers all areas of the body, it's just that a lot less of it is metal plates, and none is articulated. The back of the knee is still covered, but instead of light, articulated plates, it's by chainmail hanging off other pieces or worse.

Thus the protection is less, the weight is more and distributed worse, and the armor is harder to move in. It's just worse.

This said, a lot of things do not make sense. No one would apply an enchantment that's worth thousands on a piece of inferior tech that's worth a few hundreds. Except in a true emergency... but how do you apply an enchantment in a jiffy?

Thus, I always look at +4 half-plates with disbelief.

[JODEGAFUN]

Originally posted by Melchor:

Originally posted by Ghowsak:

it comes from the 3.5 system it is based on.

Basically half plate is made and sold as it
plate armor is custom made for the user - hence the radical higher price but overall better stats

wow, that is weird. i didnt remember 3.5 having such janky design.

i know there were a lot of exploits in that system, and thats why they tried to change it, but i dont remember it having weird quirks like that.

thanks for the answers anyways.

It comes from 2nd dnd, allready in BG1 you could read the argument in the discribtion of a full plate that it is optimized for its owner. And todays investigation show that an optimized plate is really good to wear even for normal people (they send some people in a militairy drill camp like pacour to test it and they can do it even in plate, even climbing a latter). So yes the optimizing for its wielder seems more important than the weight alone.

[Kissamies]

D&D armor never made that much sense. It wouldn't be so bad if the other systems, especially in CRPGs, weren't so inspired by the misinformation. It has gotten better in the recent years, though. Some game devs even know what brigandine is in these days.

[InEffect]

it's a game where biker gear counts as armor and arming swords are called longswords. Case closed.

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

This said, a lot of things do not make sense. No one would apply an enchantment that's worth thousands on a piece of inferior tech that's worth a few hundreds. Except in a true emergency... but how do you apply an enchantment in a jiffy?

Thus, I always look at +4 half-plates with disbelief.

I always thought it just happens when part of a magic set is lost and replaced with some mundane pieces.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

This said, a lot of things do not make sense. No one would apply an enchantment that's worth thousands on a piece of inferior tech that's worth a few hundreds. Except in a true emergency... but how do you apply an enchantment in a jiffy?

Thus, I always look at +4 half-plates with disbelief.

I always thought it just happens when part of a magic set is lost and replaced with some mundane pieces.

That's a damn good point, but what are the rules on that? If the whole set is +4, and you replace a number of pieces with maille, leather, or even brigandine, what happens to the enchantment?

If my +3 longsword (arming sword) tip breaks, and I have it ground down, to get a short sword, what's the enchantment on that new short sword?

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

Originally posted by InEffect:

I always thought it just happens when part of a magic set is lost and replaced with some mundane pieces.

That's a damn good point, but what are the rules on that? If the whole set is +4, and you replace a number of pieces with maille, leather, or even brigandine, what happens to the enchantment?

If my +3 longsword (arming sword) tip breaks, and I have it ground down, to get a short sword, what's the enchantment on that new short sword?

It generally varies from one DM to the other. Some allow reforging magic items, some say they are as is. Usually it amounts to visiting a hi-end blacksmith who does deal with magic items and paying the fee. Something like half-plate being made of what was left does make sense to me logically, so that's how I always explained it. I remember I allowed PC to restore half-plate magic armor to a full plate. Was a fun side arc to actually find an appropriate smith.

By RAW anything that doesn't involve reforging is allowed, anything that involves heating the metal strips it of enchantments, so half-plate as full plate scraps is still within the rules. At least that's how I remember it. Grinding blade down would probably fall into that too