Melee Kineticist Build (3-man party, Hard to Unfair)

[joy.kafka]

Melee Kineticist

In addition to the powerful Cloud and Deadly Earth, Kineticist is actually quite useful when engaged in melee since his melee attacks could be
(1) against touch AC,
(2) with debuff,
(3) iterative or against multi targets,
(4) empowered
and that his DEX based touch AC is decent.

Imho he is quite effective in a 2-man to 3-man party since he could do not only AOE control /damage but also melee, creating synergy with both the other melee and spell caster. The melee kineticist fits very well with my team of Paladin and Sorcerer.

Electricity - Fire - Water

Electricity first to get the free Enveloping Winds. Otherwise, Fire first would be more offensive but it would take up one more feat for Enveloping Winds later on.

Electricity-Cold-Air (Cloud) is quite a unique build that could be more defensive and team feat oriented. It also offers a little bit more damage types for AOE infusions: electrical, cold, bludgeoning and piercing, compared to the above " bludgeoning & fire". If you don't fancy both shatter defences and tripping feat tree, and prefer to add melee team feats to your team, please see below for "Other Melee Kineticist Builds".

Fundamental Feats:

Weapon Finesse - Improved Initiative - Combat Expertise - Blind fight - Improved Blind fight - Toughness

The reason for not taking Point Blank and Precise Shots is they only have their use against the enemies that are already engaged in combat with our allies. If you are playing 2-3 man party, it’d create more advantages for the kineticist to go for melee when needed. When shooting into the cloud or deadly earth, Precise Shots do not add anything.

Improved initiative and Hare are both important to avoid being flatfooted since kineticist' AC comes mainly from DEX. They also allow you to make the first hit and land the debuff. Later on, you may find other ways to never fall flat footed, but it would be much later.

Since the kineticist is either throwing cloud / deadly earth or melee against touch AC, the AB penalty from Combat expertise doesn’t matter much.

Specialised Feats:

- Shatter Defenses

The frightened enemies are only flat footed to the kineticist attacks that roll the AB-vs-AC dice. This might be quite useful for some high dex enemies that have high touch AC at the same time. Otherwise, the dreadful carnage is merely a cosmetic effect, and besides the kineticist can't really hit them all at once.

Optional Feats:

- Combat Mobility - Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blade) - Iron Will

These are the feats you could change according to the needs of your team. It is also good to take a few team feats or skill focuses here since tiefling kineticists are in need of skills (perception, persuasion, stealth and use magic devices).

Kineticist Feats:

Electricity / Hare (Initiative)- Deflect Arrows - Aerial Evasion

Fire / Dazzling Display - Dreadful Carnage - Skill Focus (Persuasion) - Dodge

Water / Shroud of Water - Healer - Tidal Wave

In the order which the feats are taken and categorised into 3 phases. Dodge doesn't belong to Fire's feat tree for example.

Dodge is the pre-requisite for Combat Mobility. Can skip it if you are not taking combat mobility.

Infusions:

Blade - Extended Range - Magnetic - Flash - Wall - Unravelling * (WhirlWind) - Cloud - Grappling

Before melee, you can throw a steam cloud with grappling and a firewall capable of dispelling. When engaged, you could choose to use electrical blade that adds +4 AB for allies, or fire blade that blinds the enemies (some would be flat-footed).

Unravelling could also be replaced by Whirlwind to attack multiple targets and apply blinding or magnetic effects to all of them. It would be more efficient if your other teammates could hit multiple targets at a time, or if you prefer to enlarge the Kineticist to include more targets into reach. If not, unravelling might be of use when needed.

Energy Blade - Touch melee attack:

- Air (Magnetic) : (+4AB for all metal attacks)

- Fire (Flash) : Blinding (-2AC, in some cases, flat footed while our allies have concealment, 50% miss chance)

- Fire (Unravelling) : Dispel

My enlarged Paladin who melees “behind” or better side by side with the kineticist uses Exhausting Criticals. My Sorcerer may cast grease and acid fogs etc to make sure their AB and AC awful enough.

Ideally on top of magnetic infusion, both of your melee characters, including the kineticist, could use some team feats, such as outflank, if affordable. The problem of having only one energy type is immunity to element and immunity to effect. That's the hard decision to be made.

Cloud with Grappling infusion

Fire/Water Steam, dealing Fire & Bludgeoning damage

If you are using Kalikke/Karenth, let the other have more physical elemental focuses, say Earth-Water-Air, you would have access to other forms of clouds, one dealing with piercing/slashing damage, another with cold damage, for example.

Now the choices of the elemental focuses for your melee kineticist are important and depends on your party capabilities if you are not using the sister couple. You can see the steam is limited to fire and bludgeoning damage. See the last paragraph.

Wall with Grappling/Unravelling infusion

Electricity, Fire, Water and Steam, dealing other kinds of damage.

The good news is WALL can use any single or composite blasts. You would apply an effect different from the one with Cloud.

Tidal Wave

Pushes everything back and let them enjoy your Cloud and Wall again.

Metakinesis Mastery

Empower

Burn cost zero means all your iterative melee attacks could be empowered. 15d6.

When you gather power for empowered (0) plus maximised (2) damage, the burn cost is the same as empower (1) plus Maximise (1).

Other Melee Kineticist Builds

Fire & Earth, plus Electricity (Deadly Earth)

- Replaces Steam Cloud with Magma Deadly Earth, features similar to Cloud but could be learnt earlier.

- Could learn Bowling infusion to be used with Deadly Earth. Tremorsense in place of Improved Blind Fight & BF. Plus, Tandem Trip, if the other can trip.

- Two offensive feat lineups. Less defensive - lose Shroud of Water, Kinetic Healer. Might need to use a physical shield for this build and spend more points on UMD skill.

- The same two energy blades: Fire & Electricity.

Electricity-Cold-Air (Cloud)

- Blizzard & Thunderstorm Clouds: Piercing & Cold / Bludgeoning & Electricity, resp. Blizzard can use Chilling or Grappling. Thunderstorm can use Synaptic or Grappling infusions.

- Give up very good (if not the best) feats from both FIRE & EARTH, in exchange for more damage types and Team Feats, Outflank(+2AB), back-to-back (+2AC), etc, mainly for the sake of melee allies. Not as powerful but reliable.

- Two energy blades: Cold energy with Chilling - Staggering, Electric energy with Magnetic/Synaptic.

- Blade - Extended Range - Magnetic - Synaptic (Will) - Wall - Grappling - Cloud - Chilling (Fortitude), (Free: Spindle)

- Outflank - Back-to-Back - Dodge - Combat Mobility - Greater Blind Fight - Skill Focus

Note: Synaptic & Chilling both have staggering effect. Could also use only one and choose another infusion.

In place of FIRE feats: Dazzling Display-Dreadful Carnage-Skill (Persuasion)-Shatter Defences, I take " Outflank - Back-to-back - Greater Blind Fight - Skill Focus (Perception) ".

Only one energy blade

compared to the original build,

- Fire-Earth-Water (Magma-Mud-Steam / Deadly Earth & Cloud) does the same type of damages. Fire blade only.

- Fire-Earth-Air (Magma-Sandstorm-Plasma / Deadly Earth & Cloud) does slashing/piercing damage in addition. Fire blade only.

- Water-Earth-Electricity (Mud - Charged Water / Deadly Earth only) Bludgeoning, Electricity - Limited. Electricity blade only.

- Air-Earth-Cold ( Sandstorm - Blizzard / for composite, Cloud only; plus single blast earth based Deadly Earth) Slashing, Piercing, Cold. Cold energy blade only, staggering effect. Whirlwind to stagger all surrounding enemies and stop their iterative attacks or other full-round action might be worthwhile.

Conclusion

To have more damage types in Cloud and Deadly Earth, you would need 3 physical elemental focus and thus not ideal for either melee or ranged attack since they both would roll against regular AC. Some sacrifices to be made here.

Kalikke/Karenth

They are the Kineticists in my team. This couple has some special benefits, which I think are super for 2-3 man party and could be excellent in becoming any classes:

(1) Their elemental proficiencies are connected, allowing you to create composite blasts from each other’s elemental focuses.

(2) They can make their own preparative works before a combat, that means, twice.

(3) Auto switch when dying.

I don't exploit the above, the reason being cloud coupled with deadly earth is too powerful which I avoid using already. But point (3) is sweet. Still, can only say better not to rely on the above.

Since one of them is already melee kineticist, you may want to focus on physical elemental focuses for the other as follows. Maybe you would find out which you prefer.

Earth - Water - Air / Water - Earth - Air

Earth - Fire - Air, order depending upon the other sister’s order

Infusions:

Extended Range - Blade - Bowling - Torrent - Wall - Deadly Earth - Cloud - Grappling

[Corridian]

Hi Joy, I think I’m going to try that instead of the KK. Thank you!

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Corridian:

Hi Joy, I think I’m going to try that instead of the KK. Thank you!

It took me some experiments to realise Kineticist itself is already good for melee, it's fun for me and hope you'll enjoy it too.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Corridian:

Hi Joy, I think I’m going to try that instead of the KK. Thank you!

Added an Electricity-Cold-Air (Cloud) build, which I planned to experiment in the first place but found it too bold. Probably would give it a try anyway.

[Corridian]

Ok. I like bold!

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Corridian:

Ok. I like bold!

Just soloed a pack of ghostly guards and anjous with a wall, a cloud, and a tidal wave push back with the new build (electricity-cold-air). Loving it. This build has effects against Will, Fortitude and Reflex, which is very sweet.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Corridian:

Ok. I like bold!

About your Witcher build, I studied a little bit and found in the end InEffect's idea of melee sorcerer might fit it as well.

Sorcerer/ Dragon Disciple / Eldritch Knight with a dip of 1 level Monk first. It sounds odd in the beginning, but then he uses one-handed weapon: Crane Wing / Crane Riposte requires one hand free to be in effect. A free hand for the hex. Spell critical from Eldritch Knight gives him quickened spells for two turns. Looks like how the Witcher fights. He uses the enchantment/illusion spells for the hex, and transmutation for mutation, such as frightful, haste, slow, etc.

This build gives 16 BAB with about 16 feats, +4 STR from DD, and AC bonus from Charisma. Might be two feats for spell focus (Enchantment) and all the rest for fighter's feats.

I don't find this enchantment Witcher build particularly useful for very late game. It actually made my late game more difficult, but turned out to be a lot of fun, and a mess. Witcher's style.

Maybe you can give it a try.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Sorcerer/ Dragon Disciple / Eldritch Knight with a dip of 1 level Monk first. It sounds odd in the beginning, but then he uses one-handed weapon: Crane Wing / Crane Riposte requires one hand free to be in effect. A free hand for the hex.

No, it doesn't. Don't ever trust anything the game tells you. It works with everything and anything melee. And no, I don't use 1h weapons on a melee sorc. Vanquisher all the way. And no, it's not odd in the beginning. I've played the build through unfair twice and melee sorc is one of the easier A1's out there.

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Spell critical from Eldritch Knight gives him quickened spells for two turns. Looks like how the Witcher fights. He uses the enchantment/illusion spells for the hex, and transmutation for mutation, such as frightful, haste, slow, etc.

Sorc spells are far beyond what witcher does. It's much more of a Vilgefortz than a witcher.

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

This build gives 16 BAB with about 16 feats, +4 STR from DD, and AC bonus from Charisma. Might be two feats for spell focus (Enchantment) and all the rest for fighter's feats.

Melee sorc doesn't use offensive magic. Or rather no magic that involves saves or rta's. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You either have good melee or good DC. Trying to do both will land you with a character that doesn't do either of the above well.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by InEffect:

No, it doesn't. Don't ever trust anything the game tells you. It works with everything and anything melee. And no, I don't use 1h weapons on a melee sorc. Vanquisher all the way. And no, it's not odd in the beginning. I've played the build through unfair twice and melee sorc is one of the easier A1's out there.

I am curious how Crane Wing and Crane Riposte work with 2-handed weapon?

In terms of role playing the Witcher, one-handed weapon with a free hand for hex looks more realistic. I'd like to use high crit weapon with improved critical, so as to enjoy 2 swift spells, keeping the chance to riposte. It's true I couldn't decide which to choose, scimitars and rapiers have higher ranges but longsword, bastard sword, or falchion look more Geralt.

Originally posted by InEffect:

Sorc spells are far beyond what witcher does. It's much more of a Vilgefortz than a witcher.

Indeed. Guess it's also fair enough since this build doesn't get to level 9 and there are not really a lot of enchantment spells affordable in high levels. Taking away some transmutation and necessary utility spells, there are not many left, which fits Geralt of Rivia quite well.

Originally posted by InEffect:

Melee sorc doesn't use offensive magic. Or rather no magic that involves saves or rta's. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You either have good melee or good DC. Trying to do both will land you with a character that doesn't do either of the above well.

You are right for solo unfair.

Maybe in terms of 2 or 3 members, it could depend on how the team is formed. I'd still prefer a pure Paladin and a pure Sorcerer after messing around with other kinds of builds, but your ideas are always something I take into consideration to walk out of my comfort zone. :)

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Originally posted by InEffect:

No, it doesn't. Don't ever trust anything the game tells you. It works with everything and anything melee. And no, I don't use 1h weapons on a melee sorc. Vanquisher all the way. And no, it's not odd in the beginning. I've played the build through unfair twice and melee sorc is one of the easier A1's out there.

Hmm, sorry, I didn't read well. Weird. Gotta test it!

[InEffect]

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

I am curious how Crane Wing and Crane Riposte work with 2-handed weapon?

Cause the game lies about all kinds of stuff. And even more of that doesn't work as it should in PnP and is never mentioned in-game.

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

In terms of role playing the Witcher, one-handed weapon with a free hand for hex looks more realistic. I'd like to use high crit weapon with improved critical, so as to enjoy 2 swift spells, keeping the chance to riposte. It's true I couldn't decide which to choose, scimitars and rapiers have higher ranges but longsword, bastard sword, or falchion look more Geralt.

That's actually not true. What geralt uses is a longsword. Those are two-handed weapons that CAN be used in one hand if the need arises. And I mean real longswords not arming swords that dnd calls longswords. Closest thing to it in-game are actually bastards if they weren't so comically disproportioned. Idk wtf happened there with owlcats design team, but those things are fugly(actually most weapons in the game are, but the point stands).

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Indeed. Guess it's also fair enough since this build doesn't get to level 9 and there are not really a lot of enchantment spells affordable in high levels. Taking away some transmutation and necessary utility spells, there are not many left, which fits Geralt of Rivia quite well.

As I said, you are far better off with a DG3 or V3/Scion1/DD4/Deliverer12 to emulate the witcher. Minor cantrips, light armor(oak), DG provides cha saves to emulate witcher being resistance to magic or take 3 vivi for light mutagen action, which also makes sense since geralt doesn't run around high on potions all the time.And those are functional with decent AC ramp and mirror, so no problem there.

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Maybe in terms of 2 or 3 members, it could depend on how the team is formed. I'd still prefer a pure Paladin and a pure Sorcerer after messing around with other kinds of builds, but your ideas are always something I take into consideration to walk out of my comfort zone. :)

Spells take standard action. If you do not overcome DC's reliably the action is wasted. We can technically stack -saves decently, but it's pita and most of it is useless as it requires actions or too many sacrifices to be worth it, so archons aura and shaken is about all you'd realistically have up all the time. Action economy is actually why echantment sucks. Even the fact that about half the enemies are flat immune to it aside, sleep is the only useful spell there as it allows to just coup de grace most of A1 instead of rolling dice. But that's about it. I don't like leaving stuff to the chance, so if you want hard CC - just stinking cloud/phantasmal web everything. Same result with less reloads. And do it with a proper sorc. And if you like giving enemy at least some chance transmutation does the job better cause slow is pretty nice.

Edit. Oh, and another issue with running offensive spells on a melee sorc is that we actually need the slots for utility spells we do need and use. There ain't that much flex in spell selection and feats are rather tight to waste them on 2 foci and heighten.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by InEffect:

That's actually not true. What geralt uses is a longsword. Those are two-handed weapons that CAN be used in one hand if the need arises. And I mean real longswords not arming swords that dnd calls longswords. Closest thing to it in-game are actually bastards if they weren't so comically disproportioned. Idk wtf happened there with owlcats design team, but those things are fugly(actually most weapons in the game are, but the point stands).

Then let me think about "Large" Bastard Swords for ultimate damage or Greatswords for the best interpretation. Greataxe just doesn't fit either for the sake of the Witcher or for a Sorcerer.

Originally posted by InEffect:

As I said, you are far better off with a DG3 or V3/Scion1/DD4/Deliverer12 to emulate the witcher.

Sounds like a good replacement for my Paladin. Guess then the sorcerer will still stay, or have you got any ideas for a replacement? The team shall be 2-3, most likely with a melee kineticist and the Witcher :)

Originally posted by InEffect:

Spells take standard action. If you do not overcome DC's reliably the action is wasted.

Can't agree more.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Greataxe just doesn't fit either for the sake of the Witcher or for a Sorcerer.

Vilgefortz used a whole bunch of weapons. Staves, swords, whatever. Greataxe is not a stretch at all for him. He pretty much IS the melee sorc. What he actually doesn't do much is offensive magic, so it's a perfect fit RP-wise. At least as perfect as it can possibly be without homebrew and/or full access to pnp resources. Also, Vanquisher looks extra stupid, so I always change the looks with visual adjustments to a bardiche or glaive anyways and those he'd be totally on-board with.

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Then let me think about "Large" Bastard Swords for ultimate damage or Greatswords for the best interpretation.

Greatswords don't fit as they can't be used with one hand. At least not with any degree of efficiency.
As to bastards there is ok-ish non-oversized bastard sword in HaTEoT nymph shop, but yeah, it's a bit of a problem if you were to compare it to blinding light that's sold in the same shop(and can be gotten from artisans with a bit of luck or scumming). Or any other meta weapon for that matter.

Keeping to a theme ECB is actually not a bad representation of witcher swords with bane of the living and clarity that we have to swap according to enemy type. And we can use visual adjustments to remove the weeb aestetics. Bad part is spell combat is wasted as you won't be able to juggle it on and off for casting/two-handing a weapon like you can with a one-hander.

Last option is to just make a decent 1h bastard with bag of tricks or crafting mod, but that's a slippery slope.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Greatswords don't fit as they can't be used with one hand. At least not with any degree of efficiency.
As to bastards there is ok-ish non-oversized bastard sword in HaTEoT nymph shop, but yeah, it's a bit of a problem if you were to compare it to blinding light that's sold in the same shop(and can be gotten from artisans with a bit of luck or scumming). Or any other meta weapon for that matter.

Keeping to a theme ECB is actually not a bad representation of witcher swords with bane of the living and clarity that we have to swap according to enemy type. And we can use visual adjustments to remove the weeb aestetics. Bad part is spell combat is wasted as you won't be able to juggle it on and off for casting/two-handing a weapon like you can with a one-hander.

I thought you don’t feel like to make use of spell combat at all?

[InEffect]

That's true. It's still somewhat of a downside. though it's a minor one as it's possible to get fearless rod before the bloom main event and quicken our mirrors, which is all I'd care about in that case. Most of that downside is in RP aspect of being able to free the hand and cast something since it's a themed build.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by InEffect:

That's true. It's still somewhat of a downside. though it's a minor one as it's possible to get fearless rod before the bloom main event and quicken our mirrors, which is all I'd care about in that case. Most of that downside is in RP aspect of being able to free the hand and cast something since it's a themed build.

After messing around with the vivi(dg) / slayer / scion / dd builds, I think I'd still prefer a pure slayer (or paladin) build if not for role playing reason.

Slayer and Paladin are actually similar. It's my own issue that I still couldn't like Sneak Attacks. Ha, in my eyes, your melee sorcerer is more Geralt like in terms of real fighting style, except that enchantment spells (hex) don't work well for late game.

Maybe I'll get a Druid for the lack of crowd control.