Level 4 spell Dragon's breath vs Dragon Disciples breath

[Sephiroth]

Look at how good it is.

1.Unlike choosing a fire ball or ice storm when you pick dragon's breath you can choose all the elements... you can use fire, cold,acid,lightning etc. breath attacks.

2. the prestige class Dragon Disciple gets access to a draconic breath attack just like the spell but the DD breath attack has to be 1 element. This makes more sense as you choose a dragon bloodline.

3. The DD can only use his gained breath attack 1 time a day at 9, 2 times a day at 15 and 3 times a day at 20. So 3 max a day and you need to get all the way to 20. By that time most of the game will have passed. Meanwhile compare that to the spell at level 4 (dragon's breath) which you can obviously cast about 5-6 times a day as a wizard or sorceror.


A change I would like to see. Make the wizards and sorceros choose a dragon breath element type and thats it for that spell. If the want to use both acid and cold breath attacks then they will need to select 2 different spells. This will make it more of an investment.

Another change I would like to see is make the Dragon Disciples breath stronger so there is a actual different between this and the other one. They are basically the same spells except the DD gets fewer uses of his breath attack.

Can someone tell me if the DD is considered a spell or an extraordinary ability or something like that. That can make a difference in this game as far as how good it is as well.

[NamelessOne]

It's a supernatural ability. It's also not the reason why you take the class. You are taking it for the stat boosts. The breath weapon is just for flavor. Most people only take 4 levels of this class for a good reason.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

Maybe owlcat could implement it as it is in pnp where you need a certain dragon scale for a certain element.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

It's a supernatural ability. It's also not the reason why you take the class. You are taking it for the stat boosts. The breath weapon is just for flavor. Most people only take 4 levels of this class for a good reason.

Disagree I don't think you should tell people why those choose a class. But sure I can see people using it for just the stat boosts but not everyone is like that. Some people want to plan around the DD class features including the breath attacks, armor bonuses/wing bonuses, transformation into dragon etc.

I'm taking it for the extra health +2 to con means 20 more health. Also for the class you get 2 more per level from what I can see. So for 10 levels of dd I get 40 more health in all. I also get 2 more int. for some more skill points. Also get 4 more strength not really needed for me though. I wish with the DD you could choose 4 to strength or 4 to dex. I would choose the dex right now.

Oh also the bab bonus increase is kinda nice for my range touch spells. 10 levels in dd will give me about 2 more bab

On top of all that I also choose it for the breath attacks. I wouldent have to select dragons breath spell at level 4 if it actually worked as its supposed to with Dragon Bloodline +1 to damage.

Its actually more useful since its not considered a spell as well. So spell defenses bonuses like those high level mage spells cannot help people vs the DD Draconic Breath.

[Sephiroth]

Apparently the DD breath ability is bugged as its not getting the bonus from my White Dragon Bloodline which is +1 to cold damage.
So my DD breath does a lot less damage. Not cool at all they need to fix that.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by =NK= Col. Jack O'Neil:

Maybe owlcat could implement it as it is in pnp where you need a certain dragon scale for a certain element.

They could make it better like if they allowed us to choose +4 to dex or +4 to strength. Make more builds possible.

But the level 4 spell just seems to good. You get any element.... they really should change it so you have to pick an element.

Compare it to all the other spells 99% of them are just a single element.
Fireball=fire
Icestorm=cold
lightning=electric

You know what I mean but instead of following the rules it instead allows you to use any element you want at will. Seems too strong to me. We should have to pick fire, lightning, etc.

[RKoz¦90N]

You're about 17 years too late with your proposed changes.

[NamelessOne]

I guess if you want to boost things that don't matter on a caster at the expense of casting levels... DD is really not good if you aren't using the STR.

Sorcerers can already cast dragon kind 1-3, and you can get wings with a feat if you pick a good race. YMMV, but I usually put a 10 in Con as a sorcerer. If I die, it's my preparation and positioning at fault. I don't want or need 40 hp at the expense of 3 casting levels. That kinda means you won't ever have 9th level spell slots after all. Hell you don't even get the best dragonform spell as your capstone.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by RKoz¦90N:

You're about 17 years too late with your proposed changes.

If you are going to speak then explain your thinking.

If you idea is PF made its rules on paper 17 years ago you must have no knowledge that these games always change their rules when they put them on pc. In fact they change the rules on paper as well. Hence why they have version 1 and 1.5 and 2.0 etc.

So changing rules and changing things in general is nothing new and in fact is a requirement to make successful games. You need to change/evolve your game with the current time. Something that once seemed good may not seem like such a good thing 5 years later.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

I guess if you want to boost things that don't matter on a caster at the expense of casting levels... DD is really not good if you aren't using the STR.

Sorcerers can already cast dragon kind 1-3, and you can get wings with a feat if you pick a good race. YMMV, but I usually put a 10 in Con as a sorcerer. If I die, it's my preparation and positioning at fault. I don't want or need 40 hp at the expense of 3 casting levels. That kinda means you won't ever have 9th level spell slots after all. Hell you don't even get the best dragonform spell as your capstone.

The DD gets all 3 levels of Dragonkind shape change.

[NamelessOne]

Originally posted by Lichdom:

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

I guess if you want to boost things that don't matter on a caster at the expense of casting levels... DD is really not good if you aren't using the STR.

Sorcerers can already cast dragon kind 1-3, and you can get wings with a feat if you pick a good race. YMMV, but I usually put a 10 in Con as a sorcerer. If I die, it's my preparation and positioning at fault. I don't want or need 40 hp at the expense of 3 casting levels. That kinda means you won't ever have 9th level spell slots after all. Hell you don't even get the best dragonform spell as your capstone.

The DD gets all 3 levels of Dragonkind shape change.

No, it does not. The level 10 bonus gives dragon form 2. Twice a day. A DD 4 or full sorcerer can use dragon 3 more times than a DD can use it's capstone, which is only dragon 2.

Dragon disciple as a class is part of the SRD and hasn't really been changed since WoTC created the class. It's not going to change. Pathfinder 1.0 is based on the 3.5 version of D&D and Owlcat isn't going to change this class in a reasonably faithful conversion of the PNP rules.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

Originally posted by Lichdom:

The DD gets all 3 levels of Dragonkind shape change.

No, it does not. The level 10 bonus gives dragon form 2. Twice a day. A DD 4 or full sorcerer can use dragon 3 more times than a DD can use it's capstone, which is only dragon 2.

Dragon disciple as a class is part of the SRD and hasn't really been changed since WoTC created the class. It's not going to change. Pathfinder 1.0 is based on the 3.5 version of D&D and Owlcat isn't going to change this class in a reasonably faithful conversion of the PNP rules.

Well looking at the sheet in game it looks like we are both wrong. From what the in game progression chart says.
My Dragonbloodline will get Dragonkind 3 at level 17. <--- this is why I said i was getting all 3 of them because the chart shows me that I am getting them all.

But the Dragon Disciple chart actually does not show any dragonkind transformations.

So technically I am only getting them because I am a sorceror which dragon bloodline.

But since you need the dragon bloodline to select DD then I guess you will always get all 3 shapechanges when you play a DD. At least with my example I am using a White Dragon bloodline. I will look at the others but naturally I suspect they are all the same.

So not to be picky or anything but it looks like I was right in the end. At LEAST if the in game charts are accurate. If they are wrong well I wouldent know because I am only at level 8 now.

If I could add a picture here to simply show you I would. I just don't see a way to add pictures here. But I took a snapshot of it in game if somehow I can share it with you.

[NamelessOne]

Dragon disciple gives -3 to your caster level if you go all the way. You will get your form of the dragon 3 at 20th character level, assuming you don't splash anything else. It's possible to complete the game without ever earning that 20th level. You will never get your 9th level spells.

It is funny that one of the selling points of the prestige class is already present in the class you are leaving...

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by NamelessOne:

Dragon disciple gives -3 to your caster level if you go all the way. You will get your form of the dragon 3 at 20th character level, assuming you don't splash anything else. It's possible to complete the game without ever earning that 20th level. You will never get your 9th level spells.

It is funny that one of the selling points of the prestige class is already present in the class you are leaving...

Did you read my last post?

The chart shows that a sorceror with dragon bloodline will get Dragonkind 3 at 17th level. (this means it has nothing to do with DD). As a plain sorceror can get it at 17th level without the DD class.

But yes I know we lose 3 if we go all the way. From my build not sure I want to. I might restart the game anyway. Don't know yet.

Well I played 3-4 times already and I always max out at level 20 so never had an issue with experience. I always reached level 20 way before game ends. I go solo to farm xp. But even now they added more content. Like the depths and some other stuff. So I don't think I will have issues with xp.

The game seems easier to me when I fight solo rather than when I fight with a whole party honestly.
With a party they die ... then its expensive to revive them.... and it takes a lot of work for each battle. But if I solo I just summon and use spells or buff myself blast them and kite them if I need to solo.

But I want to enjoy it with a full party it just seems way harder than if I do it solo.

[NamelessOne]

If you solo you end up overleveled for the area pretty quickly. There are certain break points in the game where things can be impossible, or trivial justwith a couple levels difference. Generally if you are two levels higher than you are supposed to be it's half as hard as normal. By getting an entire parties xp, especially from story xp, you will turbo level past early game challenges.