Fast Stealth + Invisibilty

[PlotinusRedux]

Fast Stealth says it lets you move at full speed without a stealth penalty. Invisibility says it grants +20 to stealth.

From the description, that sounds like fast stealth would grant a benefit while invisible and moving at full speed.

Game mechanic-wise, though, Fast Stealth just seems to let you move at full speed with the stealth button on, which invisibility allows anyway.

So, in the actual game mechanics, if you have a wizard to cast invis the few times you need it, does Fast Stealth actually do anything?

[Morgian]

Nope. That one is only useful when actually sneaking. Invisibility is superior to hiding, and one of several reasons why rogues are not popular in p&p.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Morgian:

Invisibility is superior to hiding, ...

If you have more than 20 in your Stealth skill (which is very doable at level 6), it is not.

Also, invisibility and stealth do stack.

I haven't investigated stealth mechanics thoroughly, but from what I've noticed a char using Stealth+Invisibility is (most of the time) able to get anywhere near the mobs without being noticed, while this is not the case for a char with only Stealth or only Invisibility.

I'd be interested if someone knows exactly how stealth mechanics work, tho.

From what I understand, a stealthy char first rolls d20+Stealth(+20 if invisible and ennemy can't see invisible) = S. Then, each ennemy rolls d20+perception and needs to beat S. Which, incidently, means that if the ennemy can see invisible you need a very high stealth score (something like character level + 20) to guarantee that you won't be noticed.

Originally posted by PlotinusRedux:

From the description, that sounds like fast stealth would grant a benefit while invisible and moving at full speed.

As far as I know, Fast Stealth grants no benefit at all when invisible and not in stealth mode. There's nothing that would suggest the contrary in the talent description.

[Lonesome Wolf]

Can confirm each opponent gets a PER roll once the stealther is in range and get a check every ongoing round.

Not sure if every item buff stacks with Invisibility. There is a +stealth (enhancement) cloak I believe and Invisibility might be that.

[PlotinusRedux]

Originally posted by Matt:

Originally posted by Morgian:

Invisibility is superior to hiding, ...

As far as I know, Fast Stealth grants no benefit at all when invisible and not in stealth mode. There's nothing that would suggest the contrary in the talent description.

The stealth button grays out while invisible, so my assumption is you're always in stealth mode while invisible--yet you move at full speed even without Fast Stealth. That's why I'm wondering if Fast Stealth does anything while invisible.

[Matt]

Originally posted by PlotinusRedux:

The stealth button grays out while invisible

Hmmm, you're right. And that doesn't make much sense (the fact that stealth is auto-triggered by invisibility, not the fact that you're right ;) ).

A very wild guess would be that, while invisible, you don't benefit from your Stealth skill (i.e. stealth is set to a flat 20) unless you also have Fast Stealth... but that's just a guess.

I too, would like to know how these things combine (and, for a start, how stealth exactly works when not combined with invisibility).

I've done some testing yesterday but couldn't come up with any conclusion (except that the PER roll of the ennemy surprisingly seems not-so-random, but maybe this is because I was reloading).

I'll try to do some more testing and see if I can find something out.

Edit: Did some more testing at the Crag Linnorm. Even with a Stealth score of 60 (10(ranks)+7(DEX)+3(CS)+6(SF)+4(amulet)+10(cloak)+20(invisibility)), the DC to spot my rogue seems to be only 44. Strangely, that value (44) seems fixed, but if I remove the cloak (and dont cast invisibility) the DC varies between 34 and 44. Also, strangely, when the Crag Linnorm spots my rogue, it's always with a roll of 19, never 20. Lastly, even with a full inspect, it's not possible to tell if a monster can see invisibility... (from PnP rules, a Crag Linnorm should have true seeing, but there's know way I know of to check that ingame).

Edit2: Did some more testing, and I'm getting some really confusing results.

- The enlarged owlbear like treant in the bloom has PER=30. This is consistant with Level+3+WIS and can be seen when inspecting the mob (you need to right-click once the tooltip window appears, if you don't the PER score isn't displayed). However, the mob only adds 24 to its PER checks, not 30.

- The Crag Linnorm has PER = 25. When my rogue with Stealth = 40 gets close (while in stealth mode), she most of the time isn't detected. She can even stay close to the mob for 30 mins without being detected. However, if she starts walking close to the mob, she'll be detected at some point (probably because some more checks are done while moving). The strange thing is that, when she's detected, the DC is *always* 44 (never 41,42 or 43) and the mob's roll is always 19 (never 20). If I raise the rogue's Stealth skill to 42 (mutagen DEX), it doesn't change a thing: DC on detection is still 44 (never less, never more), and roll is still 19+25 (never 20+25). Even worse: If I raise the rogue's Stealth skill to 44, she still gets detected after some time (DC=44, roll=19+25). So, basically, Stealth=40 or Stealth=44 makes no difference. Also, being invisible makes no difference at all.

This is really confusing...

[Matt]

One last addition:

I've boosted my rogue's Stealth to 49 (not using invisibility at all, just items, size bonus and the like).

When moving near the Crag Linnorm, she still gets detected after some time. The perception DC is still 44 (how can that be, seriously ?) and the roll is still 19+25 (I've seen that roll maybe 20 times, while I've never seen 20+25).

Strangely, if I lower my rogue's stealth to less than 40, I do see DCs lower than 44...

For now, I'm gonna stop the investigations, but there really seems to be something broken here.