Undead Bloodline Arcana

[aaronmv]

I tried posting this in bug reports and got no response whatsoever, so trying here.

Is the undead bloodline arcana working correctly? It says that undead are affected by your mind-affecting spells. However, fear spells such as scare, do not seem to work even though it is a mind-affecting/emotion spell. I suspect that the designers have not classified Necromancy spells such as this properly. It correctly works with spells from the Enchantment school - but the source material clearly states that some Necromancy spells (mainly those around fear) are also mind-affecting.

When a creature is not a valid target for a spell (i.e. if their HD prevent them from being a valid target), they don't even get a will save in the combat log, which is correct. However, I have tried this several times - first at the Sycamore Caves, and then again at the Stag Lord's area, against the zombies. In both cases, the enemy undead actually fail the will save in the combat log, but their behavior did not change. They continue fighting even though they're supposedly under the effects of fear. Can someone verify this?

[HeLLfire]

Per PnP it should. As such i'd classify it as a bug, unless they say otherwise.

"Bloodline Arcana: Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them."

So any\all spells that is a mind effect _should_ work on them assuming they are fleshy and were once humanoid.

As for not getting a response in the bug forum, the standard response they give would be to do as mentioned here:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/5/3393916911748070646/

[krrth]

It may actually be working as intended. It bypasses the undead trait, but skeletons and zombies are also mindless...making them immune. It's been years since I've played the PnP version, but I think that's how it worked.

[HeLLfire]

Originally posted by krrth:

It may actually be working as intended. It bypasses the undead trait, but skeletons and zombies are also mindless...making them immune. It's been years since I've played the PnP version, but I think that's how it worked.

Hmm...that's an interesting point....and i think in 3.0/3.5 D&D there was something along those lines.

However, both zombies and skeletons do not have any specific immunity to these in Pathfinder, they only have the "basic" undead traits, which include among other things:

"Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
¨
Basically ALL undeads gets these, and then you have special ones that can get more traits and abilities outside of these traits. But zombies\skeletons do not.

So my reading would be that this is what the undead sorcerer bloodline ability negates.
Now if the undead in question ALSO had fear immunity/mind affecting immunity from another source, unrelated to it being undead, then i'd consider making them still immune.

[Morgian]

Being susceptible to your mindaffecting spells does not take away their other defenses, if any. The mindless undead will never be affected by your mindaffecting spells, as nobody is at home. These are only zombies and skeletons, unless someone created a new category. Ghouls, spectres, ghosts, liches, and so on all have a mind to work upon (and good saves).

Second, some undead (the spellcasters) may have defensive spells on them. Protection from Evil (good, law or whatever) can suppress command spells. If they have a class, they have the abilities, too....undead pallies are totally fearless ;) There is also spell resistance.

From what you posted, you tried it on with the mindless undead, who should be totally immune.
Edit: skeletons and zombies have an INT score of zero. You have to find the passage in the rulebook about not having a stat, but that is where their immunity comes from, not their undead traits.

(And just my 2cp: mindaffecting spells have become pretty worthless through the editions, as each dev team found them to be too powerful. Hold person - for example - used to work on 1-3 persons and lasted a while, by now the single target gets a save each round.)

[HeLLfire]

@Morgian

I'll just C/P a guy's toughts on paizo forums that put it much better then i could:

Basically as I read it, if a mind-affecting spell would be cast on an undead normally, it's undead traits shut it down and say, "No, i'm undead, these are my immunities. See? I'm immune to sleep and charm person."

What this bloodline arcana does is it disables the undead's ability to use their resistances versus any spell that has [mind-affecting] in the descriptor. So if you had a mind affecting spell that would instantly kill a humanoid, it will now affect the corporeal humanoid undead.

The undead can no longer say, "I'm immune to instant death effects." because it has [mind-affecting] in the descriptor.

Furthermore I believe that as per normal, a human has an intelligence score and those with intelligence 2 or lower cannot be affected by charms because of their low intelligence. This is trumped by the ability when it comes to undead. Many undead are mindless and so one would think they cannot be affected, however it doesn't state in the rule that it must affect only intelligent undead. It specifically clumps all undead into the categories of corporeal humanoid or not that are under it's effects.

Now lets say you were to take the crossblooded archetype and you took serpentine bloodline as your alternate. In that it states that you can affect animals, magical beasts, etc...

Some might think since you can affect undead now, and can affect animals, that you can affect undead animals or undead magical beasts. This is not the case. The ability specifically states that it has to be a corporeal undead humanoid.

[krrth]

Originally posted by HeLLfire:

Originally posted by krrth:

It may actually be working as intended. It bypasses the undead trait, but skeletons and zombies are also mindless...making them immune. It's been years since I've played the PnP version, but I think that's how it worked.

Hmm...that's an interesting point....and i think in 3.0/3.5 D&D there was something along those lines.

However, both zombies and skeletons do not have any specific immunity to these in Pathfinder, they only have the "basic" undead traits, which include among other things:

"Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
¨
Basically ALL undeads gets these, and then you have special ones that can get more traits and abilities outside of these traits. But zombies\skeletons do not.

So my reading would be that this is what the undead sorcerer bloodline ability negates.
Now if the undead in question ALSO had fear immunity/mind affecting immunity from another source, unrelated to it being undead, then i'd consider making them still immune.

As Morgian said, it's the lack of an int score that's the trigger I believe. That part isn't undead specific.

For example, if you were to look up Threnodic spell, it specifies it works on mindless undead, whereas the arcana does not.

Also, I believe the bloodline changes the target to humanoid, not undead.

[HeLLfire]

You can interpret it as such, and it would be by no means "wrong" - i just don't.

In a PnP game, the DM would decide - so i'd still call it a bug unless the devs "rule" it to not be a bug. (Or even better that the bloodline ability got errata'ed to specify by Paizo)

[Morgian]

I looked it up and it really comes from having no INT stat (attribute section of the core rules). Missing that gives absolute immunity to all mindaffecting spells and effects, just as missing CON gives immunity to "bodily" effects. The bloodline can bypass the undead status, but not this.

It is completely besides the point, but as long as it works on the undead with an INT score, who are the dangerous ones after all, who cares about the two lowest undead types? Although it might be a good idea to test it, just to see if it works. The earliest candidates are probably Dorsy near the Witch Hut and Nettle at the crossing, who are most likely ghouls (and can both talk, so they have INT).

[Selvokaz]

Under ability scores, the game list several creature types that don't generally have Int scores, and states that those creatures are immune to mind effecting effects which makes sense. I therefore see it working similarly for other such creatures, a zombie with a Int of - clearly has no mind to work with, so while they may fail a will save, there is nothing there to influence. It's likely why the Arcana only specifies "Some undead".

[aaronmv]

Ok well in that case - what about Hold spells? I was able to cast Hold Person on the Undead Cyclops and he failed the save, but continued smacking our faces in...is this arcana just not working?

[Selvokaz]

Originally posted by aaronmv:

Ok well in that case - what about Hold spells? I was able to cast Hold Person on the Undead Cyclops and he failed the save, but continued smacking our faces in...is this arcana just not working?

Hold Person is a enchantment, it's also mind effecting, however if the Zombie Cyclops has - Int, then it wont work.

[Selvokaz]

Try using it on the Skeleton Champions that you sometimes meet in random encounters, those should be intelligent undead, and thus vulnerable to the Arcana's effects.

[Morgian]

Forget your enchantments on anything that is a skeleton or a zombie. Yes, some higher versions have a mind (cyclops clerics come to mind), but instead of wasting time with a hold spell better use scorching ray. After all, a hold spell achieves very little: it does not get rid of the enemy, it gets a save every round, and costs a spell slot (and your action that round) anyway.

[aaronmv]

Originally posted by Lettus:

Try using it on the Skeleton Champions that you sometimes meet in random encounters, those should be intelligent undead, and thus vulnerable to the Arcana's effects.

I did - mentioned it in the OP. Doesn't seem to work.

[Edstyles]

If turn undead works then so should necro fear. But wouldnt be suprised if it's a bug.