Outflank and Seize the Moment - do they stack?

[FlagrantCrazy]

Do the free attacks of opportunity from seize the moment and outflank on criticals stack? (i.e. do you get two free attacks?)

Looking at taking these feats for amiri/valerie/my main, but don't want to take both if they don't stack

[Biggie]

Originally posted by Sporp Miw:

How 'bout you let people play the way they want and offer advice instead of telling them how you think they should play their game?
Yes, there's other classes - and even archetypes within the same class - that are better than the Tactical Leader. Doesn't mean that onje HAS to play those because they're better. What if somebody IS using a TacLead and having legit fun with that choice? Who's going to tell them "no"? Certainly not you. Heck, I say all the more power to them.
There's nothing wrong with some theorycrafting, mind you - it's a good mental excercise.
We're also going off-topic.
And finally: I'm not your buddy, pal! :D

I didnt say anything of the like but your try to be smart and just giving smug comments when you obviously talking out of your hat and just giving bad advice to a player that dont know better.

You can play the game exactly as you like I never said anything else however, I asked you earlier, do you play a inquisitor tactician feat``? I didnt think so.

PS : yes its off topic and its not pleasant when Im trying to give advice and you started with being sarcastic, trying to be a smart ass but I actually know the rules and possibilities Im not talking out of the hat. And no your not my buddy I just tried to set the tone friendly with an internet troll.

The question was regarding a feat and it dont stack.
So even if you play that sub class it wont do anything towards the original posts question.

You tried to come in with a smart comment it back fired live with it and peace out.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Originally posted by Sporp Miw:

Tactical Leader's Swift Tactician ability at level 3.
You were saying?

Im saying that you didnt pick this class. Your theory crafting.

The class ability work for an extremly short amount of time over having Free summons for 1 minute per level or team work feats with your pet.

What Im saying is: Your theory crafting and not practical.

Since none of your companions can be Tactical leader it means your main character must be this.
And no one in their right mind pick the tactical leader over monster tactician or hunter.
Thats what Im saying.

And for what purpose : To give everyone one feat? Namely outflank.

Or, you pick a class for the sole purpose of giving your ranged a potential attack of opportunity once per blue moon? That seems a valid reason as any.

personally I stick crit rage 15-20 weapons into a melee train and watch them have +10 attacks per round between them. (Highest so far is +19 attacks in one round from outflank alone)

Stop trying to be sarcastic when your not following your own advice.

Again tactical leader is rather useless, if the feat worked all the time not on off for rounds it would be really good. But its not how its working and as such its not doing you any favor as mid game you have plenty of room for 1-2 extra feats to pick up. And picking outflank and combat reflexes you want to do regardless of melee class. Combat reflexes is not a team work feat, and outflank you always want available.

So you pick one class for seize the moment, the occational shake it off...didnt think so buddy.

Err, no. You can make companions Tactical leaders. Have done so myself, so that is bad advice.

And it is not just Outflank(which also increases the flanking bonus to +4, so not a bad buff), but every Teamfight feat you pick with that character.
And even if the duration is fairly low(3 rounds + half your Inq level), odds are that everything is dead within that time, as your entire team(companions, allies, AnC, your own character, summons, etc) gets the buff and goes into overcharged mode.
You only need to use it when the going gets tough and need to turn the battle. That is what it is for.

[Propsken]

Yeah, I try to be smart - but then, so do you. Pot, kettle, yadda yadda.
Also, I didn't give any advice other than my first post, that being the first reply - I'm not one of the theory-crafters you're after. I'm just trying (if not outright succeeding) to get under your skin :D

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Also, the feats are doing 2 different things.

Outflank allows YOUR ALLY to make an AoO when you(the character we are looking at) crit.

Seize the moment allows YOU to make an AoO when your ally crit.

It is 2 different triggers(one makes your ally attack, the other makes you attack), and so should "stack".

So it does same thing as outflank.
If you have Outflank and you crit, your companions all get an attack of opportunity.
If your team mates crits, and all have outflank, you get an attack of opportunity.

I know what your saying, I was reading the same thing and totally onboard with you but after testing and truly understanding they literally are the same thing. And they dont stack.

The difference is not about the attack of opportunity, the difference lies in a melee attack.

For aoo they do exactly the same thing.

But Seize the moment work with ranged and outflank dont. Thats the only difference.

Is that with Combat Reflexes giving extra AoO per round(ensuring that you have high enough dex for multiple AoO per round)?

[Blackdragon]

Per PnP rules Outflank and Seize the Moment SHOULD stack, giving 2 AoO per crit, like this:

2 characters with Outflank and StM attack the same enemy
Char1 crits: Char 2 gets AoO from Outflank AND AoO from StM
Same vice versa.

However, I'm not surprised to hear from multiple sources that they do NOT stack in this game. and only ONE AoO is procced for Char2 when Char1 crits.

Which means either a) it's yet another bug, which will probably never get fixed, or b) the devs yet again failed to comprehend PnP rules.

There's also a rumor that StM only procs on a natural 20 instead of the entire crit range. Which is definitely a bug.

So, considering these two bugs, it would seem StM is a waste of feat AtM. Outflank is awesome though.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Err, no. You can make companions Tactical leaders. Have done so myself, so that is bad advice.

And it is not just Outflank(which also increases the flanking bonus to +4, so not a bad buff), but every Teamfight feat you pick with that character.
And even if the duration is fairly low(3 rounds + half your Inq level), odds are that everything is dead within that time, as your entire team(companions, allies, AnC, your own character, summons, etc) gets the buff and goes into overcharged mode.
You only need to use it when the going gets tough and need to turn the battle. That is what it is for.

Having near-permanent summons is better than just giving a few feats for a few rounds, since you can take these feats anyway. The bonus is way too situational. If you want a front-loaded nuker, just roll another Sorc.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Err, no. You can make companions Tactical leaders. Have done so myself, so that is bad advice.

And it is not just Outflank(which also increases the flanking bonus to +4, so not a bad buff), but every Teamfight feat you pick with that character.
And even if the duration is fairly low(3 rounds + half your Inq level), odds are that everything is dead within that time, as your entire team(companions, allies, AnC, your own character, summons, etc) gets the buff and goes into overcharged mode.
You only need to use it when the going gets tough and need to turn the battle. That is what it is for.

Having near-permanent summons is better than just giving a few feats for a few rounds, since you can take these feats anyway. The bonus is way too situational. If you want a front-loaded nuker, just roll another Sorc.

The "near permanent summons" lasts a few minutes, meaning a few encounters in 1 map/section. And unless you have a lot of healing going on, they will die off before long. Basically their power is just as situational as the rest.

And like the Sacred Huntsmaster, this type on Inquisitor lacks early Judgement abilities, making the character itself comparably weaker in personal combat.

Also, if those "few teamfight feats" mean that you dont have to take them on other characters, it means better utilized feats on the rest of your party.
Outflank is good, but you do not need it in every situation, so you generally do not want to have it on every character(especially on characters that are feat starved).
But in the right situation, you will be glad that you did.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Having near-permanent summons is better than just giving a few feats for a few rounds, since you can take these feats anyway. The bonus is way too situational. If you want a front-loaded nuker, just roll another Sorc.

The "near permanent summons" lasts a few minutes, meaning a few encounters in 1 map/section.

1) 1 minute per level is not "a few". That's 10 minutes at level 10, as long as the Vivisectionist buff which is considered excellent. It means you don't have to summon every fight, but the summons are always with you.

2) The summon ability can be used 3 + Wis mod / day, which is 8/day at level 1 and only gets higher as your stat/gear improves. 11/day at level 8 is possible, that's 88 minutes of summons, hence effectively permanent.

3) The summons are tied to your character level, as if you were a full cleric casting a top-level summoning spell. So by end game you'll be summoning IX level monsters 15+times/day for 20 minutes each.

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

And unless you have a lot of healing going on

Channel Positive Energy from a cleric heals all allies.

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

they will die off before long. Basically their power is just as situational as the rest.

Just as situational as a couple of teamwork feats, which you can take anyway, for literally a few rounds per day? The comparison is frankly ridiculous.

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

And like the Sacred Huntsmaster, this type on Inquisitor lacks early Judgement abilities, making the character itself comparably weaker in personal combat.

He still gets the same BAB, profs, spells, and feats. Judgment is far too weak on lower levels to make a difference anyway, and the near-permanent summons are better at both soaking damage and dishing it out, especially considering they act as triggers for your party members' teamwork feats.

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Also, if those "few teamfight feats" mean that you dont have to take them on other characters, it means better utilized feats on the rest of your party.

You still have to take them if you want to use them more than a few rounds per day (spoiler alert: you do).

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Outflank is good, but you do not need it in every situation, so you generally do not want to have it on every character(especially on characters that are feat starved).

Outflank is build-defining, and you DO need it on ALL melee characters, including "feat-starved", because there's hardly a better option for any melee. Not only it improves your own attack by 2 (like Weapon Focus and Greater WF combined), it also generates AoOs off crits for ALL allies in range, which is huge. So everyone except mages and archers need Outflank, and if you have archers you'll want to consider Seize the Moment too.

This kind of feat is a staple of your entire party strategy. Making it dependent on a gimmicky and short-term ability of 1 character is pure nonsense, especially considering the alternative (Monster Tactician).

[FlagrantCrazy]

This is all rather disappointing because I took stm before noticing that outflank also gives crits aoos. Perhaps I'll just have to take both and give ekundayo stm as well. How does stm on ranged work?

Say char 1 is ranged and char2 is melee, does char2 critting(melee) give char1(ranged) an aoo? Or only 2 ranged next to each other gives aoos on ranged attacks? Similarly will char1(ranged) scoring a crit give char2(melee) an aoo?

Thanks for the replies. :)

[At Least Three Udon]

Is swift tactician even working?
I do not see any bonus on my teammates character screen at all (obvious one is Shake It Off), nor do I see extra damage done by them when using Precise Strike.