Outflank and Seize the Moment - do they stack?

[FlagrantCrazy]

Do the free attacks of opportunity from seize the moment and outflank on criticals stack? (i.e. do you get two free attacks?)

Looking at taking these feats for amiri/valerie/my main, but don't want to take both if they don't stack

[Propsken]

In theory, yes - as long as you have enough AoO's per round. Haven't seen the combo in practical action though, so can't say for sure.

[Biggie]

No it dont stack as it does the same thing with different wording. There is no double proc.

I have outflank and seize the moment in one of my campaigns and I can verify that you only get one proc of attack of opportunity when your allies crit.

Both basically give an attack of opportunity to you when an ally is critting.
Or you give attack of opportunities to your ally if you are critting.

If all your team members have ouotflank it does exactly the same thing as seize the moment. To the T.

You take outflank and skip seize the moment.
That said, you really want Combat Reflexes that is a mandatory skill if you have atleast 3 melee with high crit range weapons as the attack of opportunities will be flying in like no tomorrow.

As for the original question : Nope, dont pick the feat up if you have outflank. If you have outflank pick it up but makes no sense to take seize the moment over outflank, zero sense at all:)

[Sev]

Seize the Moment works with range weapons.

Outflank is melee only.

[Biggie]

Originally posted by Sev:

Seize the Moment works with range weapons.

Outflank is melee only.

Yes spot on I should have mentioned this.

But only works if you are several ranged next to eachother with it so, but have not tested if seize will give your team mates aoo.

Even so, its a useless feat to take as all need it for it to work. And making your melee train pick up a feat cause you have one ranged user is not worth the investment since Bows have with keen a 19-20 crit range and as such is not consistent.

[rakshasa72]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Originally posted by Sev:

Seize the Moment works with range weapons.

Outflank is melee only.

Yes spot on I should have mentioned this.

But only works if you are several ranged next to eachother with it so, but have not tested if seize will give your team mates aoo.

Even so, its a useless feat to take as all need it for it to work. And making your melee train pick up a feat cause you have one ranged user is not worth the investment since Bows have with keen a 19-20 crit range and as such is not consistent.

if only there were a class that allowed you to share teamwork feats with the entire team...

[Propsken]

Originally posted by rakshasa72:

if only there were a class that allowed you to share teamwork feats with the entire team...

*sniff sniff*
I smell... sarcasm.

[Biggie]

Originally posted by rakshasa72:

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Yes spot on I should have mentioned this.

But only works if you are several ranged next to eachother with it so, but have not tested if seize will give your team mates aoo.

Even so, its a useless feat to take as all need it for it to work. And making your melee train pick up a feat cause you have one ranged user is not worth the investment since Bows have with keen a 19-20 crit range and as such is not consistent.

if only there were a class that allowed you to share teamwork feats with the entire team...

But there is not.

Inquisitor dont share team work feats, for them team work feats act as if everyone have them for their purpose.

You can pick the class that can give everyone this for X amount of rounds per day and it absolutely stinks, the class and ability.

All you need is Outflank as possible Shake it off.

Your theory crafting now and reading not playing the game.

Again that specific Inquisitor sub class, tell me: Since its your main class, obviously, how far are you in the game?

Ahh, so you havent actually played it since no one in their right mind pick that sub class among inquisitor vs Monster tactician or monster hunter. which are closer to overpowered.

[Propsken]

Tactical Leader's Swift Tactician ability at level 3.
You were saying?
Oh, right. You were saying there's no class that can do it, then you say there is, but not permanently, e.g. the way you'd like it. Huh.

[Biggie]

Originally posted by Sporp Miw:

Tactical Leader's Swift Tactician ability at level 3.
You were saying?

Im saying that you didnt pick this class. Your theory crafting.

The class ability work for an extremly short amount of time over having Free summons for 1 minute per level or team work feats with your pet.

What Im saying is: Your theory crafting and not practical.

Since none of your companions can be Tactical leader it means your main character must be this.
And no one in their right mind pick the tactical leader over monster tactician or hunter.
Thats what Im saying.

And for what purpose : To give everyone one feat? Namely outflank.

Or, you pick a class for the sole purpose of giving your ranged a potential attack of opportunity once per blue moon? That seems a valid reason as any.

personally I stick crit rage 15-20 weapons into a melee train and watch them have +10 attacks per round between them. (Highest so far is +19 attacks in one round from outflank alone)

Stop trying to be sarcastic when your not following your own advice.

Again tactical leader is rather useless, if the feat worked all the time not on off for rounds it would be really good. But its not how its working and as such its not doing you any favor as mid game you have plenty of room for 1-2 extra feats to pick up. And picking outflank and combat reflexes you want to do regardless of melee class. Combat reflexes is not a team work feat, and outflank you always want available.

So you pick one class for seize the moment, the occational shake it off...didnt think so buddy.

[Biggie]

Originally posted by Sporp Miw:

Tactical Leader's Swift Tactician ability at level 3.
You were saying?
Oh, right. You were saying there's no class that can do it, then you say there is, but not permanently, e.g. the way you'd like it. Huh.

Lol your not reading what I wrote.

I said you can do it. But no one in their right mind pick Inquisitor tactical leader over monster tactician or hunter which are great classes vs a class that give others a team feat they can just pick up anyway.

Your points are theory crafting your giving bad practical advice. And your pun is not ok.

[Fendelphi]

Also, the feats are doing 2 different things.

Outflank allows YOUR ALLY to make an AoO when you(the character we are looking at) crit.

Seize the moment allows YOU to make an AoO when your ally crit.

It is 2 different triggers(one makes your ally attack, the other makes you attack), and so should "stack".

[Biggie]

Back on toping and to the OP : For your melee, they dont stack and the feat is more or less useless.

I have it in one of my campaigns and I picked the combo up early and have tried and tested.

I dont play with any ranged I run a melee train since its generally works better in the game overall.

Seize the moment is for ranged, they can use this, but again picking one feat for weapons with a natural crit range of 20 for the purpose of attack of opportunity only is not worth it.

Outflank give +2 to attack ontop of the normal +2 for flanking, for a total of +4 to hit. So this alone makes it worth it. Ontop of this it gives an attack of opportunity.
This is a feat you want always to be on, and is a feat you pick up over anything else, as early as possible.
Same with precision attack if your dex allows it.

It had been cool if they double procced, but im afraid they dont. I tested this extensively.

[Propsken]

How 'bout you let people play the way they want and offer advice instead of telling them how you think they should play their game?
Yes, there's other classes - and even archetypes within the same class - that are better than the Tactical Leader. Doesn't mean that onje HAS to play those because they're better. What if somebody IS using a TacLead and having legit fun with that choice? Who's going to tell them "no"? Certainly not you. Heck, I say all the more power to them.
There's nothing wrong with some theorycrafting, mind you - it's a good mental excercise.
We're also going off-topic.
And finally: I'm not your buddy, pal! :D

[Biggie]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Also, the feats are doing 2 different things.

Outflank allows YOUR ALLY to make an AoO when you(the character we are looking at) crit.

Seize the moment allows YOU to make an AoO when your ally crit.

It is 2 different triggers(one makes your ally attack, the other makes you attack), and so should "stack".

So it does same thing as outflank.
If you have Outflank and you crit, your companions all get an attack of opportunity.
If your team mates crits, and all have outflank, you get an attack of opportunity.

I know what your saying, I was reading the same thing and totally onboard with you but after testing and truly understanding they literally are the same thing. And they dont stack.

The difference is not about the attack of opportunity, the difference lies in a melee attack.

For aoo they do exactly the same thing.

But Seize the moment work with ranged and outflank dont. Thats the only difference.

[Propsken]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

I know what your saying, I was reading the same thing and totally onboard with you but after testing and truly understanding they literally are the same thing. And they dont stack.

The difference is not about the attack of opportunity, the difference lies in a melee attack.

For aoo they do exactly the same thing.

But Seize the moment work with ranged and outflank dont. Thats the only difference.

So you actually tested it and can attest to the feats not stacking? Now THAT's proper input. It answers the OP's question, and the theorycrafters can work with that too.