Spider Swarms Still a Problem

[thelebk]

I have not played Pathfinder Kingmaker for six months now, to give Owlcat a chance to fix some of the glaring issues. Given the almost universal criticism, from both reviewers and players regarding Owlcat's decision to place multiple simultaneous spider swarms in one of the very first quests a new player will encounter, I figured this would be addressed.

1) When players face these swarm they are likely to have main character + 3 NPCs (none of the possible options have any spells or powers which can damage spider swarms) all of which are level 2.

2) Resources are likely to be approximately 3 acid flasks and 6 alchemist fires and two torches.

3) Even an AC 24 main character will be regularly struck and poisoned by spider swarms making tanking effectively impossible versus these mobs.

4) Unless the main character is an alchemist with full bombs, good strategy, and a little luck it is effectively impossible to defeat the room with three simultaneous spider swarms at the level it is encountered.

5) Pathfinder mechanics are complex, and folks not well versed in them will not understand that they have no hope of defeating spider swarms with their current capabilities/resources-- leading to multiple immersion breaking total party kills even on normal difficulty.

As an experienced player I know there is nothing critical in the final cave chamber so I just take the fangberry from the earlier room and go. Maybe I'll come back when I have Narthopple or Octavia (with fireball memorized). Now, part of gaming is to realize when to fight and when to flee, and overall Pathfinder Kingmaker does a decent job of presenting this decision. I'll admit I am baffled why such an encounter remains in the earliest stages of the game when players are still learning the basics.

Is there a reason why this encounter was never addressed in an effective manner?

[Dixon Sider]

They are not an issue. They already dumbed down the encounter once. Please just lower the difficulty and accept that there are challenging games.

If people can beat it on unfair without knowing anything about pathfinder beforehand, it's not an issue

You can sneak in there invisible to steal the items without alerting the spiders. Just do that

[Kiru]

The spiderswarms can be beaten in maybe a dozen different ways without trouble at the given level range.

For starters you could simply equip the torches that already are in your inventory, cast protection from poison on your warriors and clobber them like any other enemy.

Obviously there are more effective ways to deal with the problem but honestly, use your head. Pathfinder is the first game of its kind in decades that actually rewards using the many little trinkets you find along the course of your adventure instead of just hauling it all off to the markets.

If you just want things to die whenever you enter the room and click on them there are many other games to cater to that already. :)

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Kiru:

If you just want things to die whenever you enter the room and click on them there are many other games to cater to that already. :)

The crazy thing is: there are settings in P:K that you can make this happen. There are settings for brutally hard, and easy as cake, with sliders to get in between.

Every player should be able to find their own sweet spot in the middle unless you think the easiest is too hard, or the hardest is too easy. Both being equally as absurd of a statement. If your sweet spot is not on the outside of those settings, then it must be inside. Nowhere else it can be

[Adeptus Stark]

You get a bunch of grenade like potions for them. Add in a character that can cast burning hands and viola.

In the end, if you are not able to beat an encounter, come back when you can. There will be many more encounters you can't beat the first time you see them. Welcome to CRPG's.

[Aria Athena]

Swarms are a nuisance, you have to be prepared for them otherwise you are screwed. But there are many encounters requiring so.

Also 24 AC is not that high for level 3-4.

[Overlard]

I will agree that swarm mechanics are poorly explained in the game, but it's fairly simple to deal with them even at low levels. Bokken hands you a ton of AOE damage flasks, though I don't remember exactly what he says, but they're usually enough to cut through the swarms unless you miss every single toss.

Even then you can just buy more.

[Immortal Reaver]

1.24 is low AC, you should have at least around 27 regular AC on your "tank"+ defensive stance +3AC, and you should have potions/spells such as BARSKIN = another AC.(31 AC is enough for normal) I managed to get 38 AC on Valerie on level 4 (Vivisectionist and Monk dip, AC feats crane style+1AC, defensive +3AC,+10armor AC,+4 AC Shield, Mutagen +2AC, Ring +2AC, focus armor+shield feats +2AC)

2. Lower difficulty.

3. Reloading and running away was expected

MOST IMPORTANT
When you have cleric with 2nd level spells cast delay poison on melee and swarm will do nothing. I don't think they do any damage to HP.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by thelebk:

4) Unless the main character is an alchemist with full bombs, good strategy, and a little luck it is effectively impossible to defeat the room with three simultaneous spider swarms at the level it is encountered.

On the contrary, once you understand how to defeat them it is not difficult. I got beaten by them on hard first attempt but that was 'cos I just took the few bombs Bokken gave me for free. Realising my mistake I simply bought a stack of bombs off him and beat them quite easily.

[thelebk]

@Dixon Sider. Thank you for the reply. Their respec of the encounter is not effective at mitigating the issues that I have mentioned. I have not seen anyone beat it on unfair under the conditions I state in my post. Also invisibility is a level 2 spell which level 2 characters do not have. Nor will you have an invis potion/scroll at this stage save for maybe one potion of vanish. Players should not have to reduce difficulty on early encounters IMHO.

@Kiru I'm sorry but you have not offered a single solution which meets the conditions I stated in my post. Please see bottom for a reminder.

@Tom You offer the only viable solution to this delimma which is to spend 400 of the 700 gold the party will have accumulated to this point buying grenade potions. As the reward for beating the encounter does not justify this expense, it sets back new and inexperienced players considerably. Also the only way you have burning hands at level 2 with the stock characters is to multi-class to a class with access to burning hands, or have a main which can cast it. This does not seem reasonable.

@Aria Athena I concur. However the nature of my post is that such encounters should not be the very first optional quest a new party receives, and that Owlcat should be more responsive to the community on issues of great outcry, and allow beta testers to test such broken early encounters.

@Overlard. Bokken only gives you five alchemist fire potions. At level 2 you will miss 50% of the time against the AC17 swarms. It will take an average of 3-4 of these "free" potions to kill the first solitary spider swarm. Again you have the choice to waste 400 gold to buy more instead of saving for a mercenary or bag of holding.

@Immortal Reaver. 24 is actually a decent AC for a level 2 character which has just left Oleg's for the first time. You do not have access to delay poison spells when your cleric is second level. Nor do you have potions or scrolls.

@Gregorovitch. If this is easy please provide a workable solution under the conditions I stated in the post and repeat below. Again blowing most of the party's gold on alchemists fire in exchange for a meager reward is not a good decision for an early party:

Typical Newbie Conditions (Refrain):

1) You only have your main character (not a a caster who can cast any AOE damage) and three NPCs-- none of which have AOE damage spells. All of the characters are newly level 2.

2) You have just left Brevoy and defeated the bandits in Oleg's trade post. Your total wealth after selling everything disposable is only 700 gold.

3) Relevant resources at your disposal include: 3 Acid flasks, 6 alchemical fires, and two torches. That's it.

4) You do not have any potions/scrolls etc of AOE damage, invisibility, delay poison.

[Aria Athena]

You can just go back there later. You don't need to fight any swarms in order to get the berries and complete the quest. It's optional and honestly it pales in front of other optional fights, like for example the skull in Old Sycamore.

[thelebk]

@Aria Athena Aye, as I mentioned in the OP you can just leave. I did not realize the demi-lich in Old Sycamore was defeatable. Does it drop anything?

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by thelebk:

@Aria Athena Aye, as I mentioned in the OP you can just leave. I did not realize the demi-lich in Old Sycamore was defeatable. Does it drop anything?

I honestly don't remember. I haven't played in almost a year and in my current playthrough I'm still only level 4. I don't think one can kill it in act 1, even on normal, but you can always go back in act 2.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

Swarms should automatically hit when they occupy your space, so it doesn't matter your ac

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by thelebk:

@Dixon Sider. Thank you for the reply. Their respec of the encounter is not effective at mitigating the issues that I have mentioned. I have not seen anyone beat it on unfair under the conditions I state in my post. Also invisibility is a level 2 spell which level 2 characters do not have. Nor will you have an invis potion/scroll at this stage save for maybe one potion of vanish. Players should not have to reduce difficulty on early encounters IMHO.

@Kiru I'm sorry but you have not offered a single solution which meets the conditions I stated in my post. Please see bottom for a reminder.

@Tom You offer the only viable solution to this delimma which is to spend 400 of the 700 gold the party will have accumulated to this point buying grenade potions. As the reward for beating the encounter does not justify this expense, it sets back new and inexperienced players considerably. Also the only way you have burning hands at level 2 with the stock characters is to multi-class to a class with access to burning hands, or have a main which can cast it. This does not seem reasonable.

@Aria Athena I concur. However the nature of my post is that such encounters should not be the very first optional quest a new party receives, and that Owlcat should be more responsive to the community on issues of great outcry, and allow beta testers to test such broken early encounters.

@Overlard. Bokken only gives you five alchemist fire potions. At level 2 you will miss 50% of the time against the AC17 swarms. It will take an average of 3-4 of these "free" potions to kill the first solitary spider swarm. Again you have the choice to waste 400 gold to buy more instead of saving for a mercenary or bag of holding.

@Immortal Reaver. 24 is actually a decent AC for a level 2 character which has just left Oleg's for the first time. You do not have access to delay poison spells when your cleric is second level. Nor do you have potions or scrolls.

@Gregorovitch. If this is easy please provide a workable solution under the conditions I stated in the post and repeat below. Again blowing most of the party's gold on alchemists fire in exchange for a meager reward is not a good decision for an early party:

Typical Newbie Conditions (Refrain):

1) You only have your main character (not a a caster who can cast any AOE damage) and three NPCs-- none of which have AOE damage spells. All of the characters are newly level 2.

2) You have just left Brevoy and defeated the bandits in Oleg's trade post. Your total wealth after selling everything disposable is only 700 gold.

3) Relevant resources at your disposal include: 3 Acid flasks, 6 alchemical fires, and two torches. That's it.

4) You do not have any potions/scrolls etc of AOE damage, invisibility, delay poison.

vanish is enough to get it. There are plenty of potions

players dont have to reduce the difficulty. I beat it on unfair pre nerf, and never heard of pathfinder before this game

[belangf]

This early encounter teaches new player an important lesson: throughout the game you will run into optional fights that can be extremely challenging for your level. Always be careful and attack anything at your own risk. I think it makes the world more realistic rather than having everything tailored to your level.