Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Pathfinder: Kingmaker

View Stats:
saffonax Jun 27, 2020 @ 6:38am
But a Falchion isn't . . .
So, creating first character (Elf Ranger) and find listed in the weapon skills options that slightly unusual medieval one handed sword that gets wider toward the 'business end', with a blade on one edge 'like a machete'.

But when I equip it the designers have made it a two handed sword !

Er, no, it's a one hand blade and for a reason, it's not really designed well for parrying so best to have a shield.
< >
Showing 1-15 of 59 comments
InEffect Jun 27, 2020 @ 7:34am 
wait till you find out longsword is actually an arming sword and what would qualify as a longsword is a bastard sword... DnD is not and was not designed to make sense. It's more of a collection of pop culture tropes. Leather is somehow armor and light and has more protection than padded, and studs somehow add protection to it. Falchion is two-handed and so on. There is pretty much nothing that does or is as it is irl.
Last edited by InEffect; Jun 27, 2020 @ 7:39am
Marxon Jun 27, 2020 @ 7:38am 
Traditionally yes, but this isn't a system known for it's historical accuracy. It's a fantasy setting and rule of cool usually wins out, that being said not every Falchion is 1H.

In DnD terms a Falchion is similar to a 2H Greatsword and a Scimitar is a 1H longsword replacement.
saffonax Jun 27, 2020 @ 8:01am 
A falchion's blade weighs about the same as a normal sword, but the blade is wider and thinner toward the 'business end'. It's a 'machete' like weapon not a cleaver, axe or 'mace with a blade'.

The D&D designers have had 46+ years to research . . .
InEffect Jun 27, 2020 @ 8:16am 
Originally posted by saffonax:
The D&D designers have had 46+ years to research . . .
That's implying they did the research or even thought about doing it at any point in 46 years. Oh boy, do I have news for you...
Last edited by InEffect; Jun 27, 2020 @ 8:18am
Swordman_Red Jun 27, 2020 @ 11:07am 
Originally posted by saffonax:
So, creating first character (Elf Ranger) and find listed in the weapon skills options that slightly unusual medieval one handed sword that gets wider toward the 'business end', with a blade on one edge 'like a machete'.

But when I equip it the designers have made it a two handed sword !

Er, no, it's a one hand blade and for a reason, it's not really designed well for parrying so best to have a shield.
Aye, that annoys me a bit too. Also a buckler not being a proper shield to be used with Shield bash.
InEffect Jun 27, 2020 @ 11:17am 
leather is not and was not armor. Biker gear won't help you against stabby things. Or against anything that would actually count as a weapon for that matter. And leather that can actually protect you will be heavier and more restrictive than plate. Imagination doesn't count as research.

And there are no such categories of swords in past or present. There are various shorter bladed historical weapons all with their own name. The dnd ones closely resemble gladius. One-handed swords are called arming swords. Longsword is a two-handed weapon which hardly will be effective as a one-handed. Bastard swords are more accurately named hand-and-a-half swords. They are predominantly two-handed weapons too that are slightly more suited for one-handed use should you really have to. Broadswords are usually basket-hilted swords(although throughout history anything that had a wider blade than what was commonly used would be called that). Two-handed is a general family of swords that includes anything from bastards to what's colloquially called warswords(stuff like zweihanders). Also most of the classification is modern. And people of old would refer to whatever was commonly used at the time as just 'sword'.
Last edited by InEffect; Jun 27, 2020 @ 11:28am
saffonax Jun 27, 2020 @ 12:19pm 
Originally posted by Martialis:
Shows what you know. Even from 1st ed AD&D, it was clear that they had done research in medieval armor and weapon types and how to fit them into the game systems.

Leather wasn't really used in the medieval period for armour though components of armour, straps and padding were made from leather. You want a D&D type game set in a 'pike and shot' era world then there would be plenty of leather. Ring mail and chain mail are different terms for essentially the same thing. Non-metallic medieval armour was padded textile (see gambeson) which was also worn under mail and later plate as padding.

Shields I think it says are wood or metal. Shields were made of wood; an all metal shield would be impracticably heavy or alternatively too thin to be of use. They might be faced with leather, perhaps metal 'ribs' for reinforcement. If held with a central grip rather than with straps that would be covered with a metal boss to protect the shield hand. Why combine two materials; obviously the shield blocks, but also the metal or leather can deflect, while the wood can absorb some of the impact.

D&D rules also don't seem to consider 'coverage'. Does the armour only go down to just above the elbow or all the way to the wrists, are the hands protected ?

Some of the weapons listed, particularly pole arms were battlefield weapons, by that I mean formed companies of infantry would carry and use them on a battlefield, but they're not weapons to carry in a skirmish.

The money system also has never been revised and is 'silly'. Electrum coins were only ever used in the ancient Kingdom of Lydia (SW Asia Minor). It is an alloy of silver and gold and was used because the mines produce intermingled gold and silver ore and they didn't have the technology to separate the two. They could easily have 'borrowed' a real medieval system or created something closer to one.
Tuidjy Jun 27, 2020 @ 12:29pm 
Originally posted by saffonax:
Er, no, it's a one hand blade and for a reason, it's not really designed well for parrying so best to have a shield.
Wait until you see the abomination called star knife. It is a contraption that is more dangerous to the user than to the enemy, that offers a grip which robs you of both leverage and versatility, that uses four times as much metal as a classical weapon with the same blade length, etc.

But, in the game, it is considered a light weapon, and in the pen and paper is considered suitable for throwing. That's dork weapon lore for you.

Originally posted by InEffect:
Longsword is a two-handed weapon which hardly will be effective as a one-handed. Bastard swords are more accurately named hand-and-a-half swords. They are predominantly two-handed weapons too that are slightly more suited for one-handed use should you really have to.
The nomenclature prevalent among English speaking HEMA enthusiasts considers bastard sword just a misnomer for longsword.

And longswords are not hard to use with a shield. Technological advances made the longswords light enough that they are similar to arming swords in weight, and better balanced. Short of the longer hilt, nothing makes the longsword worse than an arming sword for one-handed use, and all surviving medieval manuals emphasize when you should be using it with a shield.

Of course, when you use both hands, the strikes became much faster and more powerful, and rapid changes in direction became much more dangerous. And leverage increases to the point that longswords remain relevant against anything but the heaviest armor, especially with changes to the grip like half-swording or murder-stroke.

But the main reason that you see HEMA guys using longswords without shields is that it is considered cooler, and that HEMA sparring is done between supposed equals. In warfare, practically everyone would carry a shield, because for fighting people less armored than you, the combination is simply safer. When facing a plate armored opponent, you'd drop the shield and use it two handed. Well, that's if you are armored yourself. Or else you will die. Dodging is another dork mechanic.

Two-handed is a general family of swords that includes anything from bastards to what's colloquially called warswords(stuff like zweihanders).
Using a bastard sword and a zweihander has little in common. One is used as a sword, the other is constructed and looks like a sword, but it used like a polearm.

The proper term, in English, for two-handed swords that are unsuitable for one-handed use is simple two-handed sword, or if you want to be fancy and misunderstood, greatsword. Even modern German HEMA guys are not using the Zweihander name for two-handed swords, but

lso most of the classification is modern. And people of old would refer to whatever was commonly used at the time as just 'sword'.
And that's really the most important part. What I know and use daily (or at least used to) in just Anglo-HEMA jargon that an academician would poo-poo in favor of Oakeshott typology. The former focuses of use, the latter on construction and dimensions.

We know that in the past, there were people who were waxing rhapsodic about smallsword, and called them the ultimate sword that Man could design short of divine inspiration, while anyone today knows they are sнiт.

Who knows how people will classify swords in the future?
Last edited by Tuidjy; Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:57pm
InEffect Jun 27, 2020 @ 12:45pm 
Actually longer handle is the problem for one-handed use. it restricts your wrist movement and lets hand slide on a handle, which can be pretty unpleasant. And they tend to be too long to use effectively one-handed as well. Can it be used one-handed or with a shield? Duh. Would you? Probably not. Shields were used with arming swords. Longsword is a weapon of the 15th century. And would be used two-handed with a plate or as a civilian weapon. Either way shield would not be used.

And two-handed swords having little in common is exactly the point. It's a grip, not a weapon type.
Last edited by InEffect; Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:01pm
Tuidjy Jun 27, 2020 @ 12:54pm 
Originally posted by Martialis:
We will have to agree to disagree about the armor.
Except that he is right, and you are wrong. Utterly.

As I tried to point out (apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit, nor is English your first language), leather armor is not "biker gear."
Leather armor as seen in Western movies, and as you explicitly described is biker gear. Historical leather armor was not tanned supple, but hardened by boiling, and is heavy, restrictive, and absolutely not supple nor conductive to stealth.

And I've seen TV programs where in the far east they made samurai armor entirely of silk in alternating layers to create a Kevlar effect which was surprisingly effective against arrows.
I have no idea where to start. You have completely mangled everything.

Yes, silk armor is a thing. Yes, you can liken it to Kevlar. Yes, it is great at catching arrows, but not at not stopping them and distributing the impact.

No, it has nothing in common with soft lather armor. It has nothing in common with historical leather armor, either.

Yes, Japanese used small overlapping leather plates in armor. Yes, this was technically both leather armor and scale armor. Yes, it was somewhat effective against arrows, although where it really shines is against slashes, not thrusts.

No, it has nothing in common with soft leather armor. No, it is neither light nor quiet. No, it looks nothing like what you described in your first post.

Lemme quote it for you:

Originally posted by Martialis:
For instance, studded leather "is leather armor to which have been fastened metal studding as additional protection, usually including an outer coat of fairly close-set studs (small plates)."
This clearly describes biker gear. So does the fact that leather armor is considered nonrestrictive, quiet, light, etc. And the studs do nothing, as in absolutely nothing, against either piercing or slashing.

It also makes it clear that leather armor is shaped cuir bouli (leather hardened by boiling in oil).
This is historically accurate, but directly contradicts the above, which tells you that whoever wrote it did not understand whatever research he had access to. Cuir bouilli (I have no idea what bouli is, and I speak French) is heavy and stiff. To attach metal crap on it, you would have to drill it, and ruin its protection. It would be classified as non-metal plate armor, not something a sneaky scout would wear.

So even padded armor exists for a reason.
And here is another dork fantasy, based on misunderstanding.

Padded armor is not like clothing, which AD&D makes it sound like. It is bulky, encumbering, and relatively expensive. It is horrible to sleep in, it is extremely vulnerable to moisture, it requires a lot of care in the field, and is NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING like what AD&D makes it be.

It is made of a lot of layers of cloth, and it offers surprisingly good protection. The problems are everything I listed above - it is supremely inconvenient. Depending on the number of layers and the manner of use, it is properly called padding or gamberson. Neither is anything like AD&D's padded armor. The former is not meant to be used by itself, and the latter is not light and comfortable.

Seriously, dude, do not mix AD&D light, medium, heavy armor and historical armor. Apart from the names, there is little overlap. Everything is absolutely jumbled up, and you get gems like chain mail giving less of a Dexterity penalty than field plate, or leather armor being less protective than biker chic.
Last edited by Tuidjy; Jun 27, 2020 @ 2:00pm
thorsson64 Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:11pm 
Pah! All this stuff is completely irrelevant. It's a Fantasy Game - capital effing F and capital geeing G. The rules is as the rules is. Get over it.
InEffect Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:15pm 
Believability is important even in fantasy. If the laws of physics and anatomy exist star knives and such should not be a thing. Same with biker gear. Whenever I DM'ed(which wasn't that much, but still) I took time and renamed all armor and weapons in the game. Exactly for that reason - because it's stupid. If you want an edgelord biker gear - it's mundane clothing item, albeit pretty heavy one.
Last edited by InEffect; Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:20pm
thorsson64 Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:20pm 
Strangely enough, if you don't obsess about reality and spend all your time watching the Youtube experts, most of it is quite believable. Maybe not the leather armor... :steammocking:
InEffect Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:25pm 
it's not obsessing about reality. I get fantasy. But then there are things that just sound and look stupid instead of cool and that's where I draw the line.

PS. NO CAPES!
Last edited by InEffect; Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:26pm
Tuidjy Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:32pm 
Originally posted by InEffect:
Actually longer handle is the problem for one-handed use. it restricts your wrist movement and lets hand slide on a handle, which can be pretty unpleasant.
I own three longswords, two of which are modern replicas of historical ones (I do not count the wooden ones) All three have a ridge in the middle of the handle, which is of course designed to assist two handed use, but also happens to help with your hand staying where it should in one handed use. I have NEVER had my hand slip on a longsword. When I was younger, and had my brushes with wall-hanger crap, my hand slipped quite often along crappy handles.

And they tend to be too long to use effectively one-handed as well.
Historically, there was no clear split between the blade length of arming (or knightly swords) and longswords. When the most common sword became the longsword, it was not because the blades became longer, but because handles became longer. The metal technology was the bottleneck, and once crucible steel came along, arming sword blades started creeping up, all the way to 90 cm, which is also the lower and earlier end of longsword blades' range. Yes, longswords went longer and longer. Arming swords did not, because they were no longer the high end model. They became sidearms. While they are not much easier to use onehanded, they are one hell of a lot easier to carry on your belt comfortably than a longsword. That hilt juts out.

Can it be used one-handed or with a sword? Duh.
Duh indeed. And that was a huge advance in technology. Before that, using a longbladed sword one handed was much harder, because it was bulky and heavy, because you needed more metal to make a reliable long blade.

Would you? Probably not. Shields were used with arming swords. Longsword is a weapon of the 15th century.
People experimented with what can be called longsword hilt designs as soon as crucible steel came to Europe, i.e. in the 11th century. Actual longswords appeared in the 13th century. By the early 14th they were the predominant primary armament sword in Europe.

And would be used two-handed with a plate or as a civilian weapon. Either way shield would not be used.
Everyone in HEMA has his favorite medieval manuals. Mine are
- Hanko's Fechtbuch
- Flos Duellatorum in Armis
- Talhoffer's Fechtbuch

Each has over 10 pages on longsword use with a shield. Ridolfo Capo is not one of my favorites, but he actually has half his manual on shield use. I'd give you the links, but unless you are a member, you cannot get the PDFs from http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm. So I will just link to some publicly available images from the manuals. Here[i0.wp.com]

You know, I will not. All the links are third party sites explicitly linking around thearma.org members controls.

If you want to know, you can do your own research. Or get a membership.

In any case, yes, 10 pages in about a hundred is not much, but that's because you would not use the shield in anything 'cool' like facing an equal, especially in a duel. But at least Hanko's manual really emphasized training with a shield, exactly because the hilt makes it somewhat awkward, and one needs to practice, in case he needs it. Not in a duel, but on the battlefield, when facing numerous, less well equipped enemies.... like an adventurer clearing crap.
Last edited by Tuidjy; Jun 27, 2020 @ 1:37pm
< >
Showing 1-15 of 59 comments
Per page: 1530 50

Date Posted: Jun 27, 2020 @ 6:38am
Posts: 59