Pure Fighter vs Slayer

[Cupcakes]

I've narrowed down my 2H specialist to either no subclass Fighter (additional advanced weapon training feats and armor training look better than 2h variant's dmg boosts, also 2h variant doesn't get boosted CMB through weapon training) or Spawn Slayer with possible 4 level Rogue dip with for double debiliation/uncanny dodge. The planned weapon type is Elven Curve Blade.

The build plans to include tripping, which would be boosted by Fighter's weapon training and gloves of duelling. Additionally Fighter's capstone is strong, making ECBs 15-20x3 with auto confirmed crits when combined with Improved Critical. Fighter's dmg bonuses are multiplied on these crits, making them deal a lot more damage than x2 with sneaks. Fighter would also be able to wear heavy armor effectively. On the other hand Spawn Slayer would get combat maneuver boosts against larger targets (Gain Leverage @ SS 7), Studied Target is nice, Sneak Attacks, double debilitation and some great Rogue talents, such as Opportunist and Crippling Strike.

I have trouble deciding between these two options as I haven't really played these classes before aside of testing. Do you guys have any advice or opinions on this matter to help decide between these two classes?

[CHAO$$$]

This is an absolute no brainer for slayer in my opinion. The advanced rogue talents are too good to pass up. And just rogue talents in general are always nice to have.

Lawful good deliverer in particular.

I would also start 1 vivisectionist (elixir +1d6 sneak) and then 19 deliverer (ideally choose a god that gives you hit bonus for a common weapon type)(or a few more multis as you see fit - just make sure you get viv). 1 level viv is always optimal for weapon classes. The sneak dice stack as long as you dont have more than total level allows and the elixir is just way too good to not have.

Also making decisions based on level 20 abilities is silly imo.
There is a point in the game where - no matter the difficulty - if you can hit the enemy with a full attack and youre a well built weapon class youre going to 100% to 0 them in a single round. At that point other utility (such as crippling strike, rogue talents and so on) become much more valuable.

If you want a powerful class for crits then the "only 1 weapon specialist" magus subclass is the only correct choice. Probably the best class in the game period.

[jsaving]

Could not agree more, sword saint is probably the game's strongest character but among the choices listed by the OP a slayer would be stronger than a fighter (and a lawful good deliverer stronger still).

[Cupcakes]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Could not agree more, sword saint is probably the game's strongest character but among the choices listed by the OP a slayer would be stronger than a fighter (and a lawful good deliverer stronger still).

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

If you want a powerful class for crits then the "only 1 weapon specialist" magus subclass is the only correct choice. Probably the best class in the game period.

Thank you for replies. How terrible would an ECB Sword Saint be with skipping Spell Combat and lower BAB?

[jsaving]

You lose a lot of damage when you go dex-based (20-30%) in exchange for not a lot of added survivability, if that is why you are asking the question. As for spell combat, you would typically be better off without it because you'd want 1.5x strength bonus on your melee attacks.

[Cupcakes]

Originally posted by jsaving:

You lose a lot of damage when you go dex-based (20-30%) in exchange for not a lot of added survivability, if that is why you are asking the question. As for spell combat, you would typically be better off without it because you'd want 1.5x strength bonus on your melee attacks.

I was thinking of simply going STR either way. I'm just unsure if 2h Sword Saint would be better for me as a two handing melee combatant compared to the ones I was testing considering I would be skipping Sword Saint's class feature and it being a medium BAB class. Are Sword Saint's class features so strong?

[jsaving]

What you want to do as a sword saint is use your spell slots for buffs like mirror image which make you nearly invulnerable while you deliver consistently high melee DPS. Two-handers work just fine although some people prefer using a one-handed weapon to leave open the possibility of using spell combat/spellstrike on a situational basis.

[Tuidjy]

I love Sword Saints, and I am currently playing a bastard sword wielding, Strength based one.

You lose some attack bonuses from not playing a full attack bonus class, that's true. So, unbuffed, you are always less likely to hit, and not being able to wear armor, somewhat easier to hit, too, at least in the beginning.

But, here are the benefits:
1) Buffs. That's the big one. Against small fries, you're weaker. But once you buff, you are way, way more powerful. Shield, mirror image, displacement, greater invisibility, etc. all the way up to transformation - you end up way more powerful than simple fighter. Sure, many of these can come from other party members. But not all, and there's a benefit from being self-sufficient.
2) In the late game, your lack of armor becomes a lot less relevant. Between Dexterity AC bonuses (from spells or items) Intelligence AC bonuses (from Saint) and Even Wisdom/Charisma bonuses (from a single dip in monk/scaled fist) your AC becomes actually really good. A set of bracers, and you're doing quite well, better than fighters in heavy armor.
3) Size bonuses. When you are Strength based, spells like Enlarge or Legendary Proportions give you benefits that are somewhat denied to Dexterity based characters.

So you are a bit weaker at low levels, and the first two acts (Prologue and Stag Lord usurpation) and harder. But once you get him going, the sword saint becomes a self-sufficient combat beast.

As for the weapon selection, I went with strength and two-handed, because I do not care about offensive spellcasting. I really enjoy the initiative bonuses. It's good to start ahead of everyone else.

----------

Note that you can switch between two-handed and one-handed with spells, when you are using a bastard sword, except when it is oversized.

[CHAO$$$]

Originally posted by Vodka:

Thank you for replies. How terrible would an ECB Sword Saint be with skipping Spell Combat and lower BAB?

From memory - i dont think there are any ECB in the game that are overly good.

The best weapons were a fairly common forum topic a while back and off the top of my head the results were:

Best of the best:
Lions claw (Falcata - only with DLC save and ONLY if you got it in the DLC - get it around midgame (midgame can mean 30 to 50 hours in))
Estoc from the merchant at the House at the Edge of time:
Extremely late in the game.
Serpent Prince (Fauchard 2H only - have to get lucky with craftsmen RNG
Mirror Bow (artisan masterwork)

Personal favourites but numbers wise significantly worse than above:
Scimitars: comes with 18-20*2 , fairly common, theres a lategame version that zaps people with lightning on crit. How cool is that. I mean - come on.

I personally would value spell combat over 2H wielding. The game is mostly difficult at the beginning to early midgame and the very end. 2H is going to give your more damage mid and lategame, (so you reach instagib level damage earlier - but its not all that relevant because that part of the game isnt insanely hard and by lategame 1H does enough damage to kill - also note that when using a 1H weapon with str as largest modifier it counts as 2H until you actually use spell combat for modifiers) but as i said damage doesnt matter all that much at some point - as long as you hit attacks, youre in range to hit people and youre alive/not ccd your targets are going down.

There is an arcane spell that allows you to treat yourself as a full BAB class (transformation - rank 6 spell). This is the main reason to not care about spellcombat (since it disables spellcasting entirely) and its a pretty significant increase in dps.

Anyway - recasting mirror image midcombat or other spells and attacking in the same turn is more useful imo than being even better at nuking. Maybe there is a world where you prefer it if youre playing solo idk.
There are also very few fights where you cant prebuff and having spellcombat in those fights is pretty damn good (even if its just to cast transformation).

tl;dr: id suggest going 1H but using transformation for max dps if you want. Pure 2H weapons on magus are gimmicky at best imo (size modifier spells).

Make sure to get Blind Fight feat near the end/after the troll chapter for maximum value and the feat that allows you to target flat footed AC against shaken targets ("Shatter defense") by early lategame.

The lategame mage and cleric spell "frightful aspect" (icon looks like an undead transformation thing) that applies shaken in an aoe without save is the most easy and most consistent way to enable shatter defense.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

From memory - i dont think there are any ECB in the game that are overly good.

There is Bane of the Living (+5, bane vs. everything but undead and constructs and casts Harm on a critical hit). There's another craftsmen one that's good against undead but mediocre against everything else. It's not bad but Vanquisher is better than anything else two-handed.

[CHAO$$$]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

From memory - i dont think there are any ECB in the game that are overly good.

There is Bane of the Living (+5, bane vs. everything but undead and constructs and casts Harm on a critical hit). There's another craftsmen one that's good against undead but mediocre against everything else. It's not bad but Vanquisher is better than anything else two-handed.

thats pretty alright - dont think it will outperform +1 crit mod on SS on average though - the total amount of damage bonuses you get by lategame are just too insane
might be okay if you can guarantee the enemy fails their save everytime but thats probably not happening on high diff - especially with your main stat still being str

serpent prince is probably more damage on average just because of that

[Cupcakes]

I was testing Deliverer and something cool I discovered was that bane damage from a weapon and Studied Target bonus damage both are added to Divine Anathema resulting in a nice additional damage to hits. You get bane and Studied Target damage bonus twice on a single swing.

[jsaving]

For new players, I would almost always recommend deliverer over sword saint because you really need metagame knowledge to pick the right weapon on your sword saint. Deliverers are also less micro-intensive and therefore more forgiving of player mistakes, especially since it is so easy to sneak attack in this game.

Or if you want a bit of a middle ground, you can go with an abyssal scion (splash 1 level of scaled fist) or an arcane scion (take sense vitals at 9th level) who uses a longsword or scimitar. Those aren't top builds damage-wise but they will allow you to learn the basics of playing a magus without having to redo your spellbook every time you want to spec for spellstrike.

Edit: To answer a question posted above, the 8th level spell "frightful aspect" bestows the shaken condition on foes.

[Swordman_Red]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

From memory - i dont think there are any ECB in the game that are overly good.

There is Bane of the Living (+5, bane vs. everything but undead and constructs and casts Harm on a critical hit). There's another craftsmen one that's good against undead but mediocre against everything else. It's not bad but Vanquisher is better than anything else two-handed.

I was thinking if one should be healing an undead foe with this weapon on each critical hit? I wonder if it's actually the case?

[jsaving]

Ha, would love to know the answer to that!

[Swordman_Red]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Ha, would love to know the answer to that!

Oh wait, i probably remember this one. It's probably being cast on wielder.
Mb someone will correct me.