Help cure me of the restart disease

[gfish3]

So I have 262 hours playing the game, but have a serious case of constantly restarting. So far have mostly been playing with different paladins as MC, normal, Hospitaller, and Divine Hunter. It has been a painful revelation with Pathfinder 1.0/D&D 3.5 rule set of how poor a heavy armor wearing character is.

Have been saved many times by lay on hands. It's taken me a while, to get semi-decent with builds and tactics. I have really struggled with the NPCs, until I found some decent lore friendly builds by Roahin on the Pathfinder Kingmaker forum on GOG. Similarly there are some good builds on RPGCodex, a user there Halpo had a Sword Saint build that basically one hit critical on the Stag Lord.

I have had lot of issues making Valerie an interesting build, even following guides were she picks up a couple levels of Thug she is kind of boring. The only build in which I could win the duel was with a Dragon Knight build by Roahin, in which she goes sorcerer, dragon disciple, eldritch knight. Going more traditional tower shield specialist, then stalwart defender ended up getting demolished by Federo in the duel.

Anyhow community input welcome. Really would like to finish the standard campaign.

[Lampros]

I am re-starting for the 4th time as well, and I haven't finished a game yet ;)

[Mork]

I had the same disease until i play with a custom group of 4. Finding the right balance of what each members bring to the party and creating them was a blast by itself.

My tip for you will be to start building your own builds. They don't need to be overpower but just strong enough and fun. That's all... up to you.

As for Valerie, 3 TSS and 11 bard is amazing as a tank and buffer. It's quite simple but she bring so much more to the party and also free a spot for someone else.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Mork:

I had the same disease until i play with a custom group of 4. Finding the right balance of what each members bring to the party and creating them was a blast by itself.

My tip for you will be to start building your own builds. They don't need to be overpower but just strong enough and fun. That's all... up to you.

As for Valerie, 3 TSS and 11 bard is amazing as a tank and buffer. It's quite simple but she bring so much more to the party and also free a spot for someone else.

You play with party of 4?!

[Mork]

From time to time, yes

[JimmysTheBestCop]

I just finished a blind run on challenging took me almost 300 hours because I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't really learn how to build my characters until I did Varnhold since at least they start on level 5/6 and get to 9 pretty quick. You get to see different builds and you can just reroll new mercs.

I did restart once but I wasn't far into the game. I just completely messed up on leveling.

My Valerie ended the game pretty strong. I didn't really care about lore for picking their classes because you get most of them on level 1 anyway. And to me it looks like it's all about multiclassing.

Val after 1st level I took 1 level in scaled fist monk to get her charisma as AC plus it gets her crane style, crane wing, and crane riposte. Which are all really big AC things. I went with a dueling sword and even grabbed aldori trait for 2 AC. After that 1 level in Monk she was a straight Vivisectionist. Instantly get a 10 minute buff to dexterity and AC that stacks with everything. She will need a crown the entire game but they generally buff int, wis, char. So she gets more AC from cha buff. Can cast the alchemist spells with Int buff and buffing Wis increases Will saves. So it's a win win. She will also need some kind of Dex belt the entire game.

Her dex gets pretty high for someone that starts off only 13. I dumped 1st level up point into dex and then charisma and then all dex. With the Monk charisma Ac bonus and all of the crane traits for single weapon plus the alchemist spell buffs her AC gets really high think she ended up around 80+ end game for me. Early game I just cast mage armor on her until you start finding better bracers and robes.

Plus the bonus charisma helps her as an adviser. And 16 levels of Viv will give her the highest mutagen which is insane. You go weapon finesse for the dueling sword with all her dex bonuses she has no problem hitting anything. Plus all those sneak dice she did a lot of damage.

The Federo duel he couldn't really hit her AC. But I did need a staff of true strike to hit him repeatedly. I did it kind of early and her Dex wasn't as high yet so her to hit chance was not as where it should have been.

But I think that is Val's problem her Str and Dex are both mediocre 14/13 so it's extremely hard to make her into a frontliner. Either hard to get her AC up or hard to make her actually hit things and do damage. Going Monk/Viv you can boost AC and to hit chance so all of a sudden no one can hit her and she slays everything. It is gear depended but I had no problem finding insane gear in the game.

My heavy armor users were Amiri and Jaethal until end game then Jaethal went no armor and she had higher AC that way. They were both strength best 2 hand users specializing in fear. I usually swapped them out for each other. Same exact build for each of them. 2 levels barbarian, 3 levels handed fighter and rest Viv. Jaethal had a wasted level with starting Inquisitor level.

Linzi I went pet sorcerer. I disliked the bard early on and really needed a 100% arcane range AoE user. I used on during Varnhold and I never took Linzi out so I finally leveled her up. And she did extremely well as a pet sorcerer.

My MC was Knife Master lvl 4, lvl 1 traditional monk, then rest into vivisectionist. Ac was well over 80 end game. The Viv buffs are crazy especially with transformation. Two handed kukri, bracers and armor. Only save that wasn't that high was fortitude. Reflex and Will wee really high.

My MC and Val from mid game on I never had to worry about them. Amiri and Jaethal would still get hit a lot. I wasn't the best at micromanaging. And the amount of enemies on screen you want 1 sneaky off to your squishy's and killing them. But end game Jaethal with the higher powered mutagen that could buff dex and strength I was able to go no armor and bracers +7 and her Ac was a lot higher then just going full str. Didn't have to worry about damage cause she had all those sneak dice.

Val and Amiri need crowns the entire game to boost int,will, char (val) so they can cast alchemist spells.

I think it is because a lot of the heavy armor classes don't have any self buffs. So you either multiclass into something that has them or you bring 2 or 3 casters so they can buff the party up.

Like I thought Reg was awful when I got up. But once he gets mirror image, blur and some other spells he can hold his own. But by that point I was set with my party and only took him out a couple times.

I ended up hating both clerics in the party (great for me as advisers) and I didn't realize how bad they were until Varnhold where I rolled my own cleric and I was like holy wow clerics are good lol.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Mork:

From time to time, yes

Brutal! I am too chicken to do so! ;)

[Mork]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Mork:

From time to time, yes

Brutal! I am too chicken to do so! ;)

It make the game harder for sure but also easier at the same time since you will always be 1-3 level higher then a regular group.

[gfish3]

Appreciate all of the replies. Having Jubolist and his infusion ability really makes the game easier. I think magic users I'm not using properly, probably some of which is my own fault, like not hitting SHIFT space to slow down the combat speed.

Speaking of mages I found this Tristan build and have to admit I like it, he basically become a mobile artillery battery. To give credit where credit is due this is a Roahin build.

Tristian - Fire Lord
End Game: Ecclesitheurge 6 / Empyreal Sorcerer 4 / Mystic Theurge 10
Ranged Damage / Healer Build

Build Notes: By the time you get him at Cleric 3, Tristian will already be about as powerful a healer as you're going to need for a long time. He has lots of Channels for great amounts and plenty of spell slots to convert to healing. The idea with this build is that between using those Channels or spontaneously casting some Cure Spells, he's just obliterating the battlefield in fire damage as befits the Cleric of the Goddess of the Sun and Fire. Because of his large Wisdom, the sheer number of spell slots that a Theurge gets (including sharing spell slots between classes) and the Sorcerer's innate high spells per day, Tristian can just be toggled to fire off any number of powerful damaging spells in auto-combat.
Warning: This build gets extremely powerful fairly quickly and tends to trivialize the game somewhat. It's next to impossible to run out of spells, and all he has are extremely powerful heals and extremely powerful damaging spells.

Starting Stats
Ecclesitheurge-3
09 Strength
12 Dexterity
12 Constitution
10 Intelligence
17 Wisdom
16 Charisma
Skills: Persuasion 3, Lore (Nature) 3, Lore (Religion) 3, Perception 3
Feats: Extra Channel, Selective Channel, Extend Spell

Leveling Stats
Level 4 - Empyreal Sorcerer 1
Attributes: Wisdom +1
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +3
Feats: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Spells: Burning Hands(1), Magic Missile(1)

Level 5 - Empyreal Sorcerer 2
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +2, Lore (Religion) +1
Feats: Spell Specialization (Magic Missile)
Notes: Tristian should be auto-casting Magic Missile for the foreseeable future. Spell Specialization gives him an extra missile with every cast.

Level 6 - Empyreal Sorcerer 3
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +1, Lore (Religion) +2
Spells: Ray of Enfeeblement(1)

Level 7 - Empyreal Sorcerer 4
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Point Blank Shot, *Spell Specialization (Burning Arc)
Spells: Burning Arc(2)
Notes: Burning Arc is a great, underrated low-level spell. It does as much single target damage as a Fireball, doesn't risk hitting allies, and is available early. With Spell Specialization, you're good for 6d6 out the gate. Elemental Focus and Spell Focus stack for raising its DC. Also, there are a number of ray spells that Tristian will have access to. While you shouldn't put off Spell Specialization, Precise Shot is your next highest priority.

Level 8 - Mystic Theurge 1
Attributes: Wisdom +1
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Combined Spells (1st), *Spell Specialization (Magic Missile)
Spells: Mage Armor(1), Scorching Ray(2)
Notes: Wew! This is the level that Tristian begins to use his 2nd level Cleric spell slots for 1st level Sorcerer spells. Between his Sorcerer and Cleric slots, he can fire off 10 casts of Spell Specialized Magic Missile (although they come in separate stacks).

Level 9 - Mystic Theurge 2
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Precise Shot
Spells: Fireball(3)

Level 10 - Mystic Theurge 3
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Combined Spells (2nd)
Spells: Shield(1), Molten Orb(2), Haste(3)
Notes: Just to give you a sense of his auto-casting firepower, Tristian has eleven 5d4+5 Magic Missiles, ten 7d6 Burning Arcs, and six 7d6 Fireballs, plus a few Domain spells and his channels.

Level 11 - Mystic Theurge 4
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Elemental Focus (Fireball)
Spells: Dragon's Breath(4)
Notes: By this point, Tristian has both Resist Energy, Communal AND Protection from Energy, Communal. This will help him fire off his high DC Fireballs and Dragon's Breath spells with impunity into the party and monsters. It should be noted that Spell Focus and Elemental Focus both stack with one another.

Level 12 - Mystic Theurge 5
Attributes: Wisdom +1
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Combined Spells (3rd)
Spells: Mirror Image(2), Displacement(3), Obsidian Flow(4)

Level 13 - Mystic Theurge 6
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Greater Elemental Focus (Fire), *Spell Specialization (Flamestrike)
Spells: Fire Snake(5)

Level 14 - Mystic Theurge 7
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Combined Spells (4th)
Spells: False Life(2), Dispel Magic(3), Volcanic Storm(4), Geniekind(5)

Level 15 - Mystic Theurge 8
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), *Spell Specialization (Hellfire Ray)
Spells: Hellfire Ray(6)
Notes: For those keeping score, Tristian is functionally a 23rd level character and has access to 6th level spells from each list. Hellfire Ray has a higher damage cap than most other spells (15d6) and higher levels produce more rays. This'll be your go-to Specialization for the immediate future.

Level 16 - Mystic Theurge 9
Attribute: Wisdom +1
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Spells: Controlled Fireball(4), Cloudkill(5), Sirocco(6)

Level 17 - Mystic Theurge 10
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +1
Feats: Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
Spells: Firebrand(7)
Notes: It's a worthwhile idea to start using Quicken immediately. For example, while Firesnake is a nice 5th level spell, when forced to choose between that and a simultaneous x2 15d6 Hellfire Ray with a Quickened 5d4+5 Magic Missile, you might be better just using the 5th level spells for Quickened slots.

Level 18 - Ecclesitheurge 4
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +2
Notes: It's a judgement call on whether to continue leveling Cleric or Sorcerer at this point. Sorcerer is probably the better pick, but Cleric is more conceptually appropriate.

Level 19 - Ecclesitheurge 5
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +2
Feats: Improved Critical (Ray), *Spell Specialization (Fire Storm)

Level 20 - Ecclesitheurge 6
Attributes: Wisdom +1
Skills: Lore (Nature) +1, Lore (Religion) +1, Persuasion +2

[gfish3]

I've been trying to avoid the monk/vivesectionist dip, but it may be the path forward the benfits are almost too good to pass up. From what I have read and seen vivesectionist is probably one of the best classes in the game.

I'm a big fan of these types of games, and I know that Pathfinder Kingmaker was buggy at first, but is truly a good game in my opinion. In some respects would like to see Owlcat go in a different direction and have "new" parties as DLC. Varnhold does this is some respects. It would be nice to have parties that have a theme and mesh better. Some of the companions with the banter it's surprising that everyone wakes up alive after camping.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Just finishing the game the only problem I can see with that build is there are good buffs between cleric spell levels 3 and 6. And it will be a long time until you get them.

Octavia who is usually the most arcane companion most of those buffs are in her opposing schools and she doesn't have many slots to waste 2 on 1 spell when she can be sneak attack blasting. Having alchemists with infusion can help or another fulltime arcane person. Or you might need to just bring Harrim along. Leave Tristian at the base until he levels up. The group cleric protection spells are needed and Tristian won't have them.

Late Mid game/end game the above looks like Tristian will be strong. He was basically useless in my playthrough during that time frame. He was replaced with a mixture of Viv/alcemists/arcane spells and scrolls.Lot of his fire spells are ranged touch and he might be blind for you so he needs the Echo spell which he doesn't get. Its arcane or alchemists get it.

To be able to cast those early level cleric spells as a sorcerer I can see is really powerful and he would get a lot of offensive boost. Especially with magic missile, fire reflex spells. I would avoid ranged touch as he doesn't have the stats and the blind thing lol.

Heals aren't a problem with all the scrolls you can buy or find and all of the potions you find. Its a lot of the protection buff spells that you will miss out on. Unless you have someone else who can perform them.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Originally posted by gfish3:

I've been trying to avoid the monk/vivesectionist dip, but it may be the path forward the benfits are almost too good to pass up. From what I have read and seen vivesectionist is probably one of the best classes in the game.

I'm a big fan of these types of games, and I know that Pathfinder Kingmaker was buggy at first, but is truly a good game in my opinion. In some respects would like to see Owlcat go in a different direction and have "new" parties as DLC. Varnhold does this is some respects. It would be nice to have parties that have a theme and mesh better. Some of the companions with the banter it's surprising that everyone wakes up alive after camping.

To me it made sense to get another AC boost from a different class. I know there is the monk that does wisdom and charisma and the saint and duelist that do Int. Val's highest stat is charisma not counting Con that I thought was pretty useless.

Only thing I can figure is the companions have weird stats because they mostly can all be advisers. Which I why I did the Viv for 3 of the companions it makes up for there weird stat distribution. Plus viv gets the spells.

And to me the frontliners need defense buffs or that get wrecked. Maybe it was because I was a noob and had no idea what I was doing. So they need some kind of multiclass that either boosts AC or gives them defense spell buffs. I don't think there is just enough armor or AC gear to make frontliners not get wrecked every battle. Maybe if you are really good at the game you can do whatever you want. But being a noob I felt like my options were limited.

Not having a monk and paladin companion was pretty disappointing. I went blind so I had no idea. I was like oh guess I'm done with companions. What a bummer.

I did find most of the companions who I would think were the default melee personnel to be built exactly the same. All high Con, no dex or int. Not even high str. I mean 3 starting companions with toughness. 2 of them with bastard swords? Val/Amiri/Jaethal are very very similar on 1st level I thought. Except for the undead thing and the alignment thing.

I know Nok Nok had gimped attributes but it was for the sake of his massive primary attribute and it worked really well. Weird he can't be adviser even though spymaster is dex based. While Warden was con based but my highest con companions couldnt be warden. Being a noob the entire companion/adviser thing seemed off to me. Like the roles are based on some kind of personality thing but work off of attribute bonuses that have nothing to do with each other.

[jsaving]

@gfish3 I don't often see theurge builds described as getting "extremely powerful fairly quickly" to such a degree that they trivialize the game. I've done a couple of run-throughs with Tristian as a theurge and would agree it may be the best way to salvage his subpar build choices, but I always thought about it as putting up with early to mid game weakness in order to have an almost infinitely lived "power battery" at endgame.

[wendigo211]

Both of the companion clerics are pretty bad in this game. Tristian because of his alignment (can't take a monk level) low physical stats and inability to wear armor is almost forced to go Theurge. Harrim also has a bad alignment and deity choice, but at least he can wear armor. I find him the better choice for low to mid levels and he manages to be mediocre with a necromancy and evocation focus.

[InEffect]

best cure is to just power through the game once. Even if you feel you want to restart - don't. it'll pass. Lower the difficulty if you have to. After you've beaten the game once you will have a better idea of what to expect and what works rather than just blindly trying stuff out and will largely cure your ailment.

[Remove skull merchant]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Mork:

From time to time, yes

Brutal! I am too chicken to do so! ;)

Just get one or two pets and/or the wyverns. This is pretty doable although then you really need a Bard in you rparty,