Are Uncanny Dodge and Evasion pretty much "musts" for tanks?

[Lampros]

So I keep reading, but this is a lot of dips...

[Mork]

No for evasion, not many enemies will use spell like fireball that can be evade with evasion to begin with. It's a bonus but not something to go for.

Uncanny is nice, improve uncanny better but again i think it's a bonus to have. Unless you play on unfair, the wildhunt sneak attack on your very high HP tank is not a real issue... and there are other ways to protect against sneak attack/flanking.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Mork:

No for evasion, not many enemies will use spell like fireball that can be evade with evasion to begin with. It's a bonus but not something to go for.

Uncanny is nice, improve uncanny better but again i think it's a bonus to have. Unless you play on unfair, the wildhunt sneak attack on your very high HP tank is not a real issue... and there are other ways to protect against sneak attack/flanking.

Got it; thanks!

[[TGC] MadGod]

A tank should have many many HP and be buffed/equipped with as many damage-reducing/preventing spells and Items as you can afford.

A tank should have a very high armor class.

Now..uncanny dodge means you have a tank that relies on Dex or skills that add to armor class but that do not work flat-footed. In that case, yes, they need it.

In the case of a classic "tank" they usually have +1 dex since full plate only allows +1, so their flat-footed AC is nearly as high as their regular AC.

If you meet rogues/sneak attackers that can routinely hit your plate tank, you did your plate tank wrong. I usually aim for ACs around 21+level for my (plate) tanks unbuffed. And that is the minimum. All my cash in early to mid levels (<10) goes to clerics>armor>weapons>nice stuff.

Now evasion .. if you have a plate tank, you will most of the time eat the elemental damage since your reflex save will suck.

But communal protection from elements/resist elemets is cheap or your casters should have it in the first place...and with many many HP 20 or 30 hp damage means nothing.

If you do a dodge/dex tank, then yes, you should take it. You need a handful of dips/feats to reach your target, so maybe your HP are not that stellar.

For a tank in general, the only thing more important than HP are more HP. A dead tank is just difficult terrain as I usually tell my players. :)

[Lampros]

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

A tank should have many many HP and be buffed/equipped with as many damage-reducing/preventing spells and Items as you can afford.

A tank should have a very high armor class.

Now..uncanny dodge means you have a tank that relies on Dex or skills that add to armor class but that do not work flat-footed. In that case, yes, they need it.

In the case of a classic "tank" they usually have +1 dex since full plate only allows +1, so their flat-footed AC is nearly as high as their regular AC.

If you meet rogues/sneak attackers that can routinely hit your plate tank, you did your plate tank wrong. I usually aim for ACs around 21+level for my (plate) tanks unbuffed. And that is the minimum. All my cash in early to mid levels (<10) goes to clerics>armor>weapons>nice stuff.

Now evasion .. if you have a plate tank, you will most of the time eat the elemental damage since your reflex save will suck.

But communal protection from elements/resist elemets is cheap or your casters should have it in the first place...and with many many HP 20 or 30 hp damage means nothing.

If you do a dodge/dex tank, then yes, you should take it. You need a handful of dips/feats to reach your target, so maybe your HP are not that stellar.

For a tank in general, the only thing more important than HP are more HP. A dead tank is just difficult terrain as I usually tell my players. :)

Hmm, I have 1 regular plate tank (MC) and 1 Sword Saint/Monk cloth tank. So then I guess they are needed for the cloth guy?

By the way, my reflex save is quite high on even the plate guy, because he dipped 2 levels in Paladin.

[InEffect]

UD is nice early. Not very consequential later on. Evasion is useless. Just use communal protections. Mainly cause reflex means AoE. And your party is as weak against AoE as it's weakest link. If your class gives evasion - ok. If not - nothing of value was lost that day.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Hmm, I have 1 regular plate tank (MC) and 1 Sword Saint/Monk cloth tank. So then I guess they are needed for the cloth guy?

By the way, my reflex save is quite high on even the plate guy, because he dipped 2 levels in Paladin.

Yes, for a dedicated plate Tank, a paladin dip is really nice for the saves.

If that is the case, uncanny dodge is still a high investment. And with a high reflex save, you will get half damage more often, which -- if you have (as you should) invested in toughness -- will not really scratch you.

Lets say you run into the iconic maximized fireball for 60 dmg. If you were properly buffed, you will have 20 resist fire (at the minimum). As per paper rules, saving throws apply before resistances or protections.

So 60 halved = 30, res 20=10. In the mid teens where you might encounter such spells, 10 hp is basically soot on your armor. :)

And any class that relies on their dex bonus to survive might want uncanny dodge or even improved uncanny dodge, if at all possible.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by InEffect:

UD is nice early. Not so much later on. Evasion is useless. Just use communal protections.

Uh. Ok, no, just no.

Uncanny Dodge basically guarantees your dex bonus unless you get feinted. If you lose initiative, that will save a dex tank. Some of my builds derive up to 8 pts of AC from sources that no longer function if you are denied your dex bonus.

And evasion is one of the most powerful damage reducers against elemental AoEs. Unless you face an ungodly DC, there is a chance for 0 damage? Yes, please. If the investment is not too high. And basically you get a 5% chance of no damage, no matter how high the DC.

Protections are of course more important than evasion...but they can be dispelled, evasion cannot be taken from you short of immobilizing you.

[InEffect]

Who cares about initiative? Just run back for a round. Done. It's only impactful early cause you don't have haste yet. If you have it - good. If not - doesn't matter much. Also echolocation covers the better part of it too.

And evasion... you run communal protections anyways. 0 damage is still 0 damage and it doesn't matter if you've evaded or not. And if you don't run protections you will still be chunked to death with or without evasion. 200% damage will make sure of it, unless you really like rolling save-or-die dice all game. And nothing cast dispels, apart from monarchs that should die on round 1 by the time you encounter them.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Who cares about initiative? Just run back for a round. Done. It's only impactful early cause you don't have haste yet.

The three most important factors for a successful combat are HP, initiative and mobility.

In a crpg, I admit that alpha damage is just as important as mobility, if not more so.

You do not run on haste permanently. If you (your tanks) lose initiative, the enemy hits them flat-footed. If your tanks are closest to the enemy, the genius AI will focus them.

If you are unlucky, your tank will have most his bonuses from dex/dodge and without UD he will have a very bad AC flat footed. Of course, if you can live with your tank having half HP before the combat starts, I am sure haste will save you. Not.

Most likely, the next recommendation will be "use healing spells"....

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by InEffect:

And evasion... you run communal protections anyways. 0 damage is still 0 damage and it doesn't matter if you've evaded or not. And if you don't run protections you will still be chunked to death with or without evasion. 200% damage will make sure of it, unless you really like rolling save-or-die dice all game. And nothing cast dispels, apart from monarchs that should die on round 1 by the time you encounter them.

Yes, you can surely run all elements on communal prots all day long. And no, if you build your character less like a glass cannon or sneak monkey, you will not be chunked to death. At least I am not.

200% damage? The OP did not say anything about the moronic "difficulty" settings of this game, he asked a question. And apparently, you are genuinely unable to answer the actual questions.

A normal group running a normal campaign should under all circumstances have UD on a dex tank. Change my mind. And if possible, evasion. It is something that cannot be disabled. Change my mind.

And if you kill the monarchs in 1 turn, good for you. It does not invalidate my points and does not enlighten the OP.

[Lampros]

I am running Challenging and using a turn-based mod, if it helps to frame the issue better.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by Lampros:

I am running Challenging and using a turn-based mod, if it helps to frame the issue better.

I suppose Call of the Wild+Turn based? In that case, initiative is your friend. Especially on challenging. IMHO the only way the game should be played. :)

It also causes mistakes to be less forgiving, since no "running back for a round" then. The turn based way is close to the paper version of the game and a grave mistake sometimes means the grave in higher levels.

Mind you that some synergies and numbers are screwed when you fiddle with the numbers in Pathfinder, since all the skills and feats were developed along a certain power gradient.

But in general, the points stand. With increased damage, you should indeed use more protection spells and earlier. But fire-and-forget skills like evasion can save your bacon even more, since 0 damage AND your protection is still there is better than 0 damage and your protection is gone.

With increased Attributes of enemies, UD becomes even more important, because they hit better and harder with regular attacks, so your AC should never be compromised on a dex tank.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

Originally posted by Lampros:

I am running Challenging and using a turn-based mod, if it helps to frame the issue better.

I suppose Call of the Wild+Turn based? In that case, initiative is your friend. Especially on challenging. IMHO the only way the game should be played. :)

It also causes mistakes to be less forgiving, since no "running back for a round" then. The turn based way is close to the paper version of the game and a grave mistake sometimes means the grave in higher levels.

Mind you that some synergies and numbers are screwed when you fiddle with the numbers in Pathfinder, since all the skills and feats were developed along a certain power gradient.

But in general, the points stand. With increased damage, you should indeed use more protection spells and earlier. But fire-and-forget skills like evasion can save your bacon even more, since 0 damage AND your protection is still there is better than 0 damage and your protection is gone.

With increased Attributes of enemies, UD becomes even more important, because they hit better and harder with regular attacks, so your AC should never be compromised on a dex tank.

No Call of the Wild mod. Perhaps I should look into it - if it buffs armored tanks (the way the Advanced Martial Arts mod did).

[Aria Athena]

Lonely Barrows will explain to you why UD is useful to a tank. It is also useful with the WH, because if they throw touch attacks while you are flat footed they will annoy you.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

The three most important factors for a successful combat are HP, initiative and mobility.

HP is only needed in quantities that wouldn't get you one-shot. Nothing more. Initiative is not needed as you can run back while timers go. Once you've caught up - you can go back in. Done. I am not loading an nauseam because I get killed for rolling initiative. Same reason why TB is aids for unfair(apart from being slow AF)

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

You do not run on haste permanently.

I do.

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

If you (your tanks) lose initiative, the enemy hits them flat-footed. If your tanks are closest to the enemy, the genius AI will focus them.

Doesn't matter. Run back. Problem solved.

Originally posted by TGC von Anrantz:

Most likely, the next recommendation will be "use healing spells"....

Healing spells apart from mass heal scroll spam are grossly inefficient(or costly with the latter). You actually do not want to be healing in combat at all. Just don't get hit instead.