elf spellblade

[razvedchiki]

want to make a merc dex build around the ECB, whats best

- sword saint with 3 lvls of rogue for dex to dmg.
- rogue/wizard/eldritch knight.

*ECB= elven curved blade

[Orange]

Sword Saint will be the better melee with some casting capability
Eldritch Knight will be the better caster with some melee capability

But why do you want Dex then?

If you have arcane magic your defense comes from Mirror Image and Displacement spells making you less reliant on AC, plus Power Attack doubles its bonus when 2handing weapons unlike Piranha Strike.
You have more incentive to go the strenght route with those options than multiclassing for a dex-to-damage on a ECB

Going the Dex route would make more sense for an Eldritch Scoundrel as it saves you the need to multiclasse and it nets you a wider spell selection than the sword saint, plus if you want more BAB or hitpoints you can always prestige to Eldritch Knight.
There's also Rogue/Bard or Rogue/Alchemist Vivisectionist for their stackable bonuses if you really want to multiclasse on a Dex build

[Mork]

The sword saint / rogue will be better in combat in general but use his spells almost only for buffing.

The wizard / rogue / eldritch knight will probably be a better caster overall but also have a slower 'feeling' of progression until you reach high level, mostly level 18 where he is gonna reach is full potential.

What is it that you want the most? A caster with physical abilities or a combatant with spells?

[razvedchiki]

melee tank, thats why i will use that ECB.
since very few mobs use dispel having shield/ mirror image etc is a great boon.
or a fireball or 2 for the trash mobs.
sword saints get full BaB?

[Mork]

Originally posted by razvedchiki:

sword saints get full BaB?

No they get 3/4 BAB

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Mork:

No they get 3/4 BAB

Not that they care since transform is a thing.
On the subject, the guy likely wants SF1/Fighter1/Scoundrel8/EK10. Kinda garbage, but ecb is not exactly a good platform to build on and dex especially.

[razvedchiki]

you are really itching for a second ban

Originally posted by Orange:

Sword Saint will be the better melee with some casting capability
Eldritch Knight will be the better caster with some melee capability

But why do you want Dex then?

If you have arcane magic your defense comes from Mirror Image and Displacement spells making you less reliant on AC, plus Power Attack doubles its bonus when 2handing weapons unlike Piranha Strike.
You have more incentive to go the strenght route with those options than multiclassing for a dex-to-damage on a ECB

Going the Dex route would make more sense for an Eldritch Scoundrel as it saves you the need to multiclasse and it nets you a wider spell selection than the sword saint, plus if you want more BAB or hitpoints you can always prestige to Eldritch Knight.
There's also Rogue/Bard or Rogue/Alchemist Vivisectionist for their stackable bonuses if you really want to multiclasse on a Dex build

mainly because mercs get 20 point buy and its better to dump str than dex, which gives reflex saves plus ac.

[InEffect]

It doesn't compensate for the loss of legendary proportions. It's not like being dex summons 6 stats out of nowhere. You sacrifice a lot of damage for like 2-3 earlygame AC. Dex is pretty good in low-level campaigns like varn. Main campaign - not so much. You just pay around 30% damage for nothing. Or for RP if that makes you feel better.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by InEffect:

It doesn't compensate for the loss of legendary proportions. It's not like being dex summons 6 stats out of nowhere. You sacrifice a lot of damage for like 2-3 earlygame AC. Dex is pretty good in low-level campaigns like varn. Main campaign - not so much. You just pay around 30% damage for nothing. Or for RP if that makes you feel better.

My take is that a Dexterity build is marginally better at tanking and somewhat worse at damage dealing when unbuffed. When buffed, the Strength build is significantly better at dealing damage, by almost half.

At low difficulty, around level 10 or so, the Strength build is good enough (5% hits) at tanking, so it's better by dishing out more damage.

At high difficulty, the Dexterity build remains better at tanking for a bit longer, I guess, but at some point the Strength build catches up, i.e. gets to 5% hits. With Bokken's potion, items and buffs, it gets there. Then it's better, again.

So, unless you absolutely hate buffs which expire in less than 20mn, a Strength build is going to eventually be better.

Two handed weapon, power attack, and watch the three digit damage roll in, even on non-criticals.

----------

This does not mean that a Dexterity build is bad. It's awesome at tanking, and decent at damage. You do not need to be able to one-shot all your enemies in round one, so it is OK if you have only a couple of characters who can dish out 300+ damage per round.

[InEffect]

Most anything* can cruise unfair comfortably if you manage to survive to 5. That's pretty much it. I really can't come up with something so bad that 3AC would be worth the damage loss for the whole duration of the game. Doesn't mean one can't do it. Maybe you like the idea of dex character, maybe you want to be lazier buffing... whatever the case, but there is no reason to do it from making a better character standpoint.

*built and controlled by me, that is. I mean any concept. Evidently, there is no limit to how badly people build and control theirs

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Most anything(built and controlled by me, that is. I mean any concept) can cruise unfair comfortably if you manage to survive to 5. That's pretty much it. I really can't come up with something so bad that 3AC would be worth the damage loss for the whole duration of the game.

Oh, come on, 3 AC is low-balling it.

A Dexterity build can start at Dex 20, when my Strength builds start at Dex 12. That's 4, right there. Then 1-3 from size (Dex goes smaller, Str goes bigger), +2 from level stat increases, etc.

About 10 AC difference is not out of the question. But that does not matter.

In the roguelike DLC (Beneath the whatever) I made a few level 20 builds that could surpass 100 AC with buffs. So 10 AC does not matter - 80 is enough down to floor 70ish.

If you include buffs, there is no argument - Strength rules. But many players, including myself, like a party that does not rely on short buffs except in very rare, obviously telegraphed cases.

If you have played the game already, and know exactly what is coming, a Strength buff benefits, because you can plan out when you buff.

But I started my Unfair run before I had really started appreciating Strength builds. Dexterity is A-OK, when, in Addition, you have a Strength weapon damage dealer, a Deadly Earth kineticist, and an Arcane caster who goes nova for insane amounts of damage. So the Dexterity build is comfortable (read lazy) - in most battles, he doesn't even need to apply buffs.

Now, if I do a solo run on Unfair, I'd definitely go Strength + Arcane casting.

But honestly that would be masochistic.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

A Dexterity build can start at Dex 20, when my Strength builds start at Dex 12. That's 4, right there. Then 1-3 from size (Dex goes smaller, Str goes bigger), +2 from level stat increases, etc.

that's on you. Typical str starts as a monk human with 18/16/13/7/7/16, which is 1-3 AC from dex. If we care about benchmark stats at 1, he can also be Aasimar, which would net 1AC more, but that means no skill-points and I can think of a use or two for those. Except he doesn't need to invest feats and can spend those on ramping up AC, while dex has no such luxury. Not to mention that mansion is pure hell for any dex build, since you either are a saint with pretty low AC, or you don't have damage at all and have to roll the RNG roulette a lot harder. If we were to actually calculate level 1-5 AC's dex would be around 2 higher on average, which hardly warrants all the sacrifices made. And, as already mentioned, mansion being hell for dex characters I don't see myself rolling those anytime soon. The area has enough loading as is.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

A Dexterity build can start at Dex 20, when my Strength builds start at Dex 12. That's 4, right there. Then 1-3 from size (Dex goes smaller, Str goes bigger), +2 from level stat increases, etc.

that's on you. Typical str starts as a monk human with 18/16/13/7/7/16, which is 1-3 AC from dex.

The Original Poster was talking about Sword Saints, and Eldrich Knights going off Intelligence. You are talking about Int 7 builds.

You do not see the difference between what I am talking about, and a build that minimizes Intelligenge and Wisdom, so it gets a bit of extra AC, to the cost of skill points? You even make a point about Asimars, and their lack of skill points.

In any case, an Assimar in a Saint/Monk Dexterity build gets plenty of AC points from Intelligence. Yes, Int 7 with +2 potion and +8 gear will let you cast level 6 spells. But I find it better to balance the Stat points between Dex and Int, given that they both end up as AC. And the Assimar gets +1 AC from the extra stat, and +3 in melee due to Wings.

The story is different for a Scaled Fist/Charisma caster, be he bard, sorcerer or whatever.

[InEffect]

saint goes 18/14/12/15/7/16 Aasimar. Same deal. really, except he has 1 AC less in the mansion and catches up at 2.

And in any case you didn't specify your plan to beating unfair mansion with a dex build. I guess it's something like 'go saint and load a ton cause no AC'.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by InEffect:

And in any case you didn't specify your plan to beating unfair mansion with a dex build. I guess it's something like 'go saint and load a ton cause no AC'.

Eh. I have not gotten there yet.

What I do not understand what would make the Strength based saint better? The extra damage? Is it that close? I have practically all of my other characters focused on damage. Does 'the mansion' force you to solo? Then a sword saint/monk with level 6 spells is far from the worst choice.

You know, don't tell me. When I do get there, I am sure I'll figure something out.

[razvedchiki]

probably gonna roll a fighter/wizard/eldritch knight, thanks.