Empower Spell good or bad? Need help

[Velovar]

Which spells are good for Empower Spell? (playing a sorcerer full dmg)

[InEffect]

Greater empower rods go decently well with stormbolts and banshee. Not exactly grandmaster rod, but it's good enough. Regular empower rods work decently well for hellfire rays. Lesser rods for scorching rays.

[Velovar]

I was thinking about feat (im not that far in game), ok so scorching rays are best for empower spell? What about magic missile?

[Mork]

Maximize and empower feats = bad
Rods, gear(robe) and universalist abilities = very good

Rods, a universalist wizard and a robe call Leviathan's Gift will outshine the feats by far,
except for heighten spell that don't have any rod.

For example at level 12 sorcerer you could do a
empower(rod) + maximize (robe) + chain lightning (or any level 6 or less)

It's impossible to do this with the feats since they require higher spell level to cast and also keep in mind that sorcerer using metamagic feats will cast very slowly versus a wizard.

[Velovar]

Originally posted by Mork:

...and also keep in mind that sorcerer using metamagic feats will cast very slowly versus a wizard.

Ok so time for a retrain, but could you please elaborate this? How is sorcerer slower then a wizard?

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Weirding Way:

I was thinking about feat (im not that far in game), ok so scorching rays are best for empower spell? What about magic missile?

well you did say full damage sorc. So that means sorc/AT with damage/dice stacked and with the abundance of insane rods sorcs don't want to waste feats on useless metamagic. Heighten and extend are still ok, though.

[Velovar]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Originally posted by Weirding Way:

I was thinking about feat (im not that far in game), ok so scorching rays are best for empower spell? What about magic missile?

well you did say full damage sorc. So that means sorc/AT with damage/dice stacked and with the abundance of insane rods damage sorcs don't want to waste feats on useless metamagic.

Ah.. my bad. I meant full dmg as having only dmg spells :)

[InEffect]

generally there are only two metamagic feats any caster would want: heighten and extend. And the latter is not mandatory either. Heighten is just way to good to pass on.
And sorcs kinda hate metamagic since it takes them full action to cast those. Rods don't have such limitations.

[Mork]

Originally posted by Weirding Way:

Originally posted by Mork:

...and also keep in mind that sorcerer using metamagic feats will cast very slowly versus a wizard.

Ok so time for a retrain, but could you please elaborate this? How is sorcerer slower then a wizard?

Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat. [...]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats

[Orange]

Any spell with dice rolling is good for the empower metamagic since its a flat +50% to the final result... hell you could even get some milage out of it for a Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation if you wished to debuff an enemy to oblivion.

But given the min/max nature of the comunity they'll probably say something along the lines "Whatever spell matches your draconic bloodline element and slap some Arcane Trickster levels on it for even moar damage, then just get Rods"

The top metamagics are easily: Heighten for keeping lower level spells relevant, Empower for damage and Extend if you rely on buffs

Personally i enjoy Maximize spell on an Universalist Wizard

[[TGC] MadGod]

You learn something every day...i was not aware that metamagic rods are not according to the usual rules for sorcerers in this game. One of the reasons I dislike sorcerers in the paper version is that I cannot throw money against the problem of having to spend a full action to cast a metamagic spell.

I usually take empower, maximize or heighten spell (the latter not really needed in this game) for a feat and then use a rod for a second metamagic effect. For a wizard. All other needs like extend and stuff are taken as rods.

Sorcerers are too slow with metamagic feats so I would only take quicken but then I rather spend cash on the rod. Usually...if they can actually cast spells as a standard action when using rods, heh..that becomes a fun blasting session all of a sudden.

[jsaving]

Originally posted by Orange:

But given the min/max nature of the comunity they'll probably say something along the lines "Whatever spell matches your draconic bloodline element and slap some Arcane Trickster levels on it for even moar damage, then just get Rods"

I wouldn't know how to approach the OP's question except from a point of view of what will best promote in-game success. And from that point of view empower and maximize aren't great selections. I don't think anyone would claim they make characters too weak to be viable, by any means, only that there are better ways to spend scarce feat slots, especially when rods are available.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Orange:

Any spell with dice rolling is good for the empower metamagic since its a flat +50% to the final result... hell you could even get some milage out of it for a Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation if you wished to debuff an enemy to oblivion.

Actually, no. Best spells for empower are the ones that don't involve dice rolling: circle of death/undeath to death/banshee. that's 150 guaranteed damage from the former and 300 from the latter.

Originally posted by Orange:

But given the min/max nature of the comunity they'll probably say something along the lines "Whatever spell matches your draconic bloodline element and slap some Arcane Trickster levels on it for even moar damage, then just get Rods"

that makes no sense. Why would one care about the element?

Originally posted by Orange:

The top metamagics are easily: Heighten for keeping lower level spells relevant, Empower for damage and Extend if you rely on buffs

Personally i enjoy Maximize spell on an Universalist Wizard

I wouldn't even ask what good it'll do since I bet the answer would be along the lines of 'it makes me happy to look at in the character sheet and I don't care that it's worse than level-appropriate spells without any metamagic whatsoever'

[Orange]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Actually, no. Best spells for empower are the ones that don't involve dice rolling: circle of death/undeath to death/banshee. that's 150 guaranteed damage from the former and 300 from the latter.

Weird... given that by the description it should only increase spells that have variables and not the ones with static values. "Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables."

Originally posted by InEffect:

that makes no sense. Why would one care about the element?

If your plan is to squeeze every number why not add another +1 per dice rolled from the draconic bloodline arcana? Slap an amulet and the right hat and you net a +3 per dice rolled for another extra 30 or 60 damage to factor in the extra 50%

Originally posted by InEffect:

I wouldn't even ask what good it'll do since I bet the answer would be along the lines of 'it makes me happy to look at in the character sheet and I don't care that it's worse than level-appropriate spells without any metamagic whatsoever'

Simple... Universal Wizards school feature is that they can use metamagics without increasing the spell slot level, so yeah i can have even more maximized\empowered\extended bullets in the chamber paired with the Rods

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Actually, no. Best spells for empower are the ones that don't involve dice rolling: circle of death/undeath to death/banshee. that's 150 guaranteed damage from the former and 300 from the latter.

Should not work like that. Empower increases variable effects and the bonses to THOSE variable effects. Circle of Death would destroy a maximum of 20d4*1.5 HD, which is the variable effect. All other effects would not be multiplied. Neither are they variable nor a bonus to the rolls.

An empowered ray of enfeeblement would do a maximum of (1d6+5)*1.5 strength damage, since the bonus is not static (although there is much debate about that..:) ). Some say 1d6*1.5 +5 but i am of the former faction.

If you do not need to roll a dice, empower is useless, since there are no variable effects. Even if you look at things like finger of death, empowering it is useless since the empowered part would only kick in on a successful save. It will not do 10/level*1.5.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Originally posted by Orange:

But given the min/max nature of the comunity they'll probably say something along the lines "Whatever spell matches your draconic bloodline element and slap some Arcane Trickster levels on it for even moar damage, then just get Rods"

that makes no sense. Why would one care about the element?

Draconic Bloodline sorcs get an additional +1 to damage per die of damage done by a spell that corresponds to the element of their breath weapon. I think that's what he's referring to.